Manifold slash turbo question

suicidal2af · Jan 12, 2005

I believe I've posted this once before, but never got an intelligent response and am still insanely curious, so I figured I would ask again.

The evo6.5 TME 16g still seems like the ideal turbo for what my goals are. I had asked at one time before if it were feasible to bolt it onto a DSM, but every response was pretty much "NO IT SPINS THE OPPOSITE WAY IT WON'T WORK". I realize that the inlet would be facing the opposite direction, but harder things have been worked around. I guess the main question is, will the manifold off of a newer evo bolt onto our 4G63? If the bolt pattern is the same, there is no reason that this wouldn't work.

The reason I have a fetish for this turbo is that it is *exactly* what I'm looking for. Flow characteristics that very closely resemble a 20G, with slightly faster spool(albeit slightly slower than a normal b16g...which is good for a FWD). The biggest thing is that it has a very light rotating assembly, and transient response is very good for its flowrate.

Anyone know?

DSMnewbi · Jan 12, 2005

I don't see why you don't just go with a TD05/20g.. I haveone and there's damn near no lag. Why go through all the trouble of fabbing a new manifold and intercooler piping when there's a good turbo right under your nose?

redleader36 · Jan 12, 2005

If you go to RREs web site, the turbo section, they sell Evo8 exhaust manifolds. On the site, it says "They [evo8 exhaust manifolds] are a direct bolt on for a 2G, they require the same slight trimming on one corner when used on a 1G to clear the P/S bracket as a 2G manifold would need"

suicidal2af · Jan 13, 2005

DSMnewbi said:
I don't see why you don't just go with a TD05/20g.. I haveone and there's damn near no lag. Why go through all the trouble of fabbing a new manifold and intercooler piping when there's a good turbo right under your nose?

TD05-20g's kill the area where 20g's shine--top end. The later twin-scroll evo turbos are far more efficient. And it's pretty impossible to beat the transient response of the Tommi Makinen edition's iteration of the 16g...and that makes a big difference in autox.

redleader: Thanks for the information. That's exactly what I wanted to know.

DSMnewbi · Jan 13, 2005

suicidal2af said:
TD05-20g's kill the area where 20g's shine--top end. The later twin-scroll evo turbos are far more efficient. And it's pretty impossible to beat the transient response of the Tommi Makinen edition's iteration of the 16g...and that makes a big difference in autox.

redleader: Thanks for the information. That's exactly what I wanted to know.

If you're looking for an autocross turbo why are you complaining of the td05/20gs top end?

suicidal2af · Jan 13, 2005

DSMnewbi said:
If you're looking for an autocross turbo why are you complaining of the td05/20gs top end?

Solo I.

Revolution · Jan 13, 2005

Im not going to question you'r motives as I am very interested in this thread and where it will take us. In regards to transient response why not buy a t28 or an evo 16g then throw in some top end equipment in the mix like cams and an intake manifold?

Im just curious , but in the end I know you want a turbo that does it all , wich I can admier , but are you already thinking about mixing things up. I always thought the best friend any dsm in autocross would be the abbility to add displacement.

Any how I thought it would be feasable to make custome ss-lines for both water and oil replacements. If the turbo pointed one way then whats so hard about flipping it back the other way? Again I would like to see legitamet proof that these turbo's wont work on our 4g63 versions.

suicidal2af · Jan 13, 2005

Revolution said:
Im not going to question you'r motives as I am very interested in this thread and where it will take us. In regards to transient response why not buy a t28 or an evo 16g then throw in some top end equipment in the mix like cams and an intake manifold?

Im just curious , but in the end I know you want a turbo that does it all , wich I can admier , but are you already thinking about mixing things up. I always thought the best friend any dsm in autocross would be the abbility to add displacement.

Any how I thought it would be feasable to make custome ss-lines for both water and oil replacements. If the turbo pointed one way then whats so hard about flipping it back the other way? Again I would like to see legitamet proof that these turbo's wont work on our 4g63 versions.

I don't think you would be able to flip it back around because of the twinscroll design. I could be wrong, as I haven't seen the inlet or collector, but I'm running on an assumption here.

As far as the evo3/t28 go, the later evo 16g's are available for not much more than the evo3, and a bit less than the t28. You would want a better-flowing exhaust manifold anyway, may as well match it up with the turbo, right? I don't know, it's mainly just curiosity. If there's another option out there, why not explore it?

bastarddsm · Jan 13, 2005

it is nice to see somone goining off the beaten path with these cars. i got flammed bigtime when i was planning on using a t3 off a svo on my dsm when i did my swap.

Revolution · Jan 14, 2005

If you are referring to the way the exhaust flow will turn the wheel,or how the wheel fins are directed ,I really dont think that would be a problem because the housing will always direct the flow in the proper direction .

Now the problem being is how the the evo's 6.5 exhaust housing is flanged. You could make the evo's exhaust manifold bolt up ,but say you didnt have that option.
My thoughts would then focus on making some type of adaptor where one side of this say 1 inch flange would be a circle matching whatever flange size you had ,then have a splitter in the middle of the circle . Now flip this flange around and you would have to have the shape of the turbine housing opening.

The only way to make this type of flange where to be a cnc shop craft it for you,wich could run expensive for just a one off peice ,but with the correct calculations and numbers it can and could be made.

Now I could understand that the main reason this trubo is saught out for is because of the lightend cartridge wich is made out of titanium, but why not just out source the carttridge in install it into a normal 16g housing? Certain things like the fitment would arise but has anybody really looked into that avenue?Maybe a bullseye cartdridge?

P.s In my own opinion I would rather have a well balanced car with different parts responsible for specific characteristics then just relying on the turbo. But again It would be nice to just credit the turbo for being perfect.

Revolution · Jan 14, 2005

oh and by the way if any body cares to know the flow chart for this evo 6.5 turbo wich is posted on the foced performance site is the exact same as the evo 3 flow chart wich also came from their site a few weeks ago.

Just some food for thought. :confused:

suicidal2af · Jan 14, 2005

Revolution said:
If you are referring to the way the exhaust flow will turn the wheel,or how the wheel fins are directed ,I really dont think that would be a problem because the housing will always direct the flow in the proper direction .

Now the problem being is how the the evo's 6.5 exhaust housing is flanged. You could make the evo's exhaust manifold bolt up ,but say you didnt have that option.
My thoughts would then focus on making some type of adaptor where one side of this say 1 inch flange would be a circle matching whatever flange size you had ,then have a splitter in the middle of the circle . Now flip this flange around and you would have to have the shape of the turbine housing opening.

The only way to make this type of flange where to be a cnc shop craft it for you,wich could run expensive for just a one off peice ,but with the correct calculations and numbers it can and could be made.

Now I could understand that the main reason this trubo is saught out for is because of the lightend cartridge wich is made out of titanium, but why not just out source the carttridge in install it into a normal 16g housing? Certain things like the fitment would arise but has anybody really looked into that avenue?Maybe a bullseye cartdridge?

P.s In my own opinion I would rather have a well balanced car with different parts responsible for specific characteristics then just relying on the turbo. But again It would be nice to just credit the turbo for being perfect.

Nobody said anything about relying on just a turbo. If it fits the setup perfectly, better than an eIII16g, then why skimp on it?

As far as the orientation, the problem with flipping it would be solely based on how twinscroll works. You actually have a divided collector on the manifold, which is splitting the airflow into the 2 seperate inlet holes on the turbo. Flipping this around, I theorize, is going to #### the whole thing up.

The lightened CHRA isn't the only reason it's better. It's also its 10.5cm housing, which definitely improves on top end. The lighter CHRA also negates the bad spool characteristics of a lightened housing. It's also built using different metals, and can withstand higher EGT's.

As far as the compressor maps being the same...wrong. They are similiar(after all, we are still talking about a 16G)...but not the same.

b16g: http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/maps/td05-16glarge.gif
e6.5TME: http://linux.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/graphics/00000001/full/evo_ti_map_full.jpg

The first thing you will want to notice is that the center island on the b16g is 71% efficiency. The center on the e6.5 16G is 74%. If you look, at pretty much any given PR(keeping in mind your boost is PR - 1 bar), the e6.5 is always more efficient. Less heat = cooler charge = more power. Also notice that worst efficiency on the b16g chart is 60%, and the worst on the e6.5 is 68%. It also runs up to almost 3 bar.

Wanna see something else neat? http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/maps/td06-20g.gif

Airflow isn't much higher than the super-efficient TD05HR-16G6-10.51...but the transient response of the e6.5-16g is much better than that of a 20G.

Revolution · Jan 15, 2005

suicidal2af said:
Nobody said anything about relying on just a turbo. If it fits the setup perfectly, better than an eIII16g, then why skimp on it?

Im not skimping just anylizing.

As far as the orientation, the problem with flipping it would be solely based on how twinscroll works. You actually have a divided collector on the manifold, which is splitting the airflow into the 2 seperate inlet holes on the turbo. Flipping this around, I theorize, is going to #### the whole thing up.

Bingo but because the housing is made to flow the exhaust fume towards the twin scrolls ,it wont make a difference if it upside down because the flow will always flow the same in the housing no matter what direction it's pointing to.

The lightened CHRA isn't the only reason it's better. It's also its 10.5cm housing, which definitely improves on top end. The lighter CHRA also negates the bad spool characteristics of a lightened housing. It's also built using different metals, and can withstand higher EGT's.

Ok Now if you dont want to change housings ,to say a hance race craft or a bullseye then my flange idea would work. Basically one side is matched to the turbine housing while the other is matched to your exhaust manifold . Think about it.

As far as the compressor maps being the same...wrong. They are similiar(after all, we are still talking about a 16G)...but not the same.

b16g: http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/maps/td05-16glarge.gif
e6.5TME: http://linux.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/graphics/00000001/full/evo_ti_map_full.jpg

The first thing you will want to notice is that the center island on the b16g is 71% efficiency. The center on the e6.5 16G is 74%. If you look, at pretty much any given PR(keeping in mind your boost is PR - 1 bar), the e6.5 is always more efficient. Less heat = cooler charge = more power. Also notice that worst efficiency on the b16g chart is 60%, and the worst on the e6.5 is 68%. It also runs up to almost 3 bar.

Ok just to recap , I stated that the same compressor map wich is currently being shown for the e6.5 is the same map that was being showed a few months ago in corespondence to the e316G.

Basically I right clicked and saved this map off of forced performance's web site awhile ago for the evo316g. Now when I tried to do the same thing for the 6.5 my pc tells me that this map already exsisted in my files as,, you guessed it the e316g map.

Wanna see something else neat? http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/maps/td06-20g.gif

Airflow isn't much higher than the super-efficient TD05HR-16G6-10.51...but the transient response of the e6.5-16g is much better than that of a 20G.

Again I am interested in the outcome of this research you'r doing , But I would personally get the turbo and swap out housings. Just my take on how to make it work ,with the least amount of headaches.

suicidal2af · Jan 15, 2005

Revolution said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again I am interested in the outcome of this research you'r doing , But I would personally get the turbo and swap out housings. Just my take on how to make it work ,with the least amount of headaches. REV--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The thing you're assuming is that the dividing of air is done by the turbine housing--it's actually done by the collector in the manifold. If you flip it around or use a different housing, you're losing that effect.

drk mrk iv · Jan 15, 2005

I am interested in this idea as well.

Skipping some of the technical stuff...

One could use a manifold off an evo8 (saving costs)
the 8's turbo (which is the same design, no?) and saving costs

The only problems I could see are:

Oil lines (in and out)
water lines, but these are easily overcome
02 housing?
downpipe matching up with 02 housing.
And the I/C piping.

suicidal2af · Mar 14, 2005

I've done my homework on this, and I've got some pretty definitive answers.

An evo8 exhaust manifold WILL indeed bolt onto our head. That solves that problem -- maybe. Examining an evo a few days ago, the evo8 mani protrudes much farther than ours do. On a 1g I wouldn't see any problem, but radiator clearance definitely could be an issue on a 2G.

The twin scroll flange is NOT symmetrical, so flipping it around is not an option. It's going to have to be run with the inlet on the opposite side.

The bright side to this is that it makes it EXTREMELY easy to do a side-exit exhaust. Just run a straight pipe, do a little bit of cutting. Done. I'm also thinking that you could very easily run an intake pipe parallel to your licp, and have a CAI.

My plans have changed a little; I'm soon in the market for a 1g tsi awd(in addition to my 2g, not replacing it). I am pretty sure I'm going to run this exact setup if I buy one that still has a 14b.

For small things like water lines and oil feed/return lines, I would assume we could very easily use the oem lines for the evo. After all, it is the same block. Very minor modifications should be needed for them to work.

The only thing this leaves unanswered is running a rear-exit exhaust. Any evo4 or higher o2 housing should be usable, but everything else would have to be custom fabbed. But that isn't really *too* big of a deal, after all, how many people on this forum are using custom-bent exhaust on their whips?

All things considered, it seems to me that this could possibly be a good upgrade path to replace the current evo3 16g trend. Consider the prices most 1g guys spend on a 2g mani, 16g, and evo3 housing, and compare it to what you'd pay to pick up, say, a used evo8 mani and evo8 16g/o2 housing, and it's not very much more.

It is, though, quite a bit more potent.

redleader36 · May 16, 2005

I just ran into this website from a starion forum. I hope this helps!
Evo 8 turbo on a 4g63

Tallen · May 16, 2005

To confirm your suspicions.

No you can't flip the turbo. Yes the mani will bolt up. All you have to do is deal with clearance issues. Should be a fun little project!

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Manifold slash turbo question

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