How competetive can i be in a DSM?

[Mike Marnik]

Ok ive been into the straight line racing for a while and dabbeld in Auto-x last year. Im out of the strightline stuff and sold my 91 talon. now i have a 90 awd thats basically stock. I want to get into autox competitivly and am debating if i should stick with a dsm platform or make the jump to a 98-01 impreza 2.5rs. First off this will also be my dd untill next summer when i graduate college and get a real job. I have approx 4k to spend on buy a car if i dont just use me 90 awd. and have my sights set of a 96 tsi awd with 88k on the clock. Basically is it worth my time and money to stick with my dsm roots (ive been into them for 6 years now) or should i just find a different platform. Also i want something nicer and lower milage right now and my 90 daily has 171k and no clear coat but has most every thing replaced onit.

 

[ilco187]

suby's are slow, i only like those for off road rally events that's about all there good for.

keep the dsm they are feared more upon than anything, were im from.

 

[cerberus95tsi]

stick with the dsm subies are nice but they are tuned to the max from the factory major mods are needed to make them fast . dsm 1/4 of the price and little mods make big power

 

[Mike Marnik]

whats better for autox a 1g awd or a 2g awd? i know 2gs have way more options for suspension. ive already had a 1g awd with ksport coilovers and it still wasnts all the great my roomates s14 with ksports handled 10 times better

 

[Dallas J]

DSMs need quite a bit of lovin to get into a happy handling range. Until things get balanced it just likes to under-steer a ton.

If you want to learn how to drive then get something that does well relatively stock. Or you can just follow some of the paths others have done (koni/gc, rm bars, re-drilled control arms, tires). Something like miata, civic hatch, or 240sx all seem to make great stock or street touring platforms. Once you get into the Street prepared range they all start evening out and it really comes down to driver, brains, and money.

Look at some old National Tour results to find out whats doing well in each class and what you'd like to drive. Over modding a car then assuming you'll be able to tune it while learning also how to drive is a backwards way to do things, unfortunately its pretty how most of us got started including myself. It took years (5ish) to get to the point where I show up and its pretty much assumed I'm gonna win street mod.

 

[everbruin]

i hope you mean scca autox as you've the home field advantage for nationals!
sounds like you've a limited budget; to be the most competitive you want a light/small car so that 15" tires are cheap. ST classes using street tires could also keep costs down. st civic and sts crx and miata are all fairly cheap but very fast and able to beat bigger stx and stu cars on tight/momentum courses.

btw subie rs/wrx/sti have done great at solo2 nationals

 

[BoostFrenzy]

sounds like you've a limited budget; to be the most competitive you want a light/small car so that 15" tires are cheap. ST classes using street tires could also keep costs down. st civic and sts crx and miata are all fairly cheap but very fast and able to beat bigger stx and stu cars on tight/momentum courses.

Can't forget the BMW E30 cars. Most likely can't afford a M3, but a 325is would perform nicely. It's the 1g DSM of the euro market in my eyes. Suspension, tires and a little bit of power go a long way on those.

 

[xloki77x]

I would have to agree with everbruin on this. A Miata or civic hatch are both light, well balanced, and have great suspension geometry from the factory. Although my race car is a 1g AWD, I am envious of the superior dual a arm suspension of others. DSM's have two great advantages for sure: the 4g63 and AWD. Our suspension, at least the 1g, leaves a lot to be desired but can be overcome with some modifications and good, quality replacement parts. Rear Active Toe Elimination is a must for any semi serious road race/autox application. A good damper/coilover setup is also a must (Koni/GC mainly). Another must is the replacement of any and all rubber bushings. Any deflection is bad deflection in my book (from a racing standpoint). Motor mounts, front and rear subframes, front control arms, rear lower control arms (upper should be replaced with adjustable arms or you can make your own to adjust rear camber) and front & rear swaybar bushings should all be replaced with polyurethane ones. The rear sway bar should be upgraded while the front can be left alone.

You can do all these mods and they will not mean a thing until you as a driver become efficient and learn to use the car at it's limit. The big thing then is seat time. That is the biggest thing people in the road racing world say to anyone wanting to race. Seat time, seat time, seat time. Hope that helps.

Pete

 

[Mike Marnik]

i hope you mean scca autox ### you've the home field advantage for nationals!
sounds like you've a limited budget; to be the most competitive you want a light/small car so that 15" tires are cheap. ST classes using street tires could also keep costs down. st civic and sts crx and miata are all fairly cheap but very fast and able to beat bigger stx and stu cars on tight/momentum courses.

btw subie rs/wrx/sti have done great at solo2 nationals

yea ive been ogt to the pro solo event and plan to go to the solo event after work today

 

[krusty_9]

I have been autocrossing my 1g in ESP this entire year, and I'm having a blast. This year I was mainly focusing on improving my driving skills as opposed to trying to build the best car I can, which is my recommendation to you for next year. Attend solo schools your region may do, or come down the one in KC

This winter, I plan on taking care of the active toe in the rear as well as new bushings all around since the shell does have almost 170K miles on it and hope to be more competitive in ESP for next year. Also going to attend the Evolution school as well.

Pic of my heap

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[xloki77x]

1g's are way cool anyway

 

[Mike Marnik]

Well #### this makes me wish i hadnt sold my other car. i had k sport coilovers all the poly bushings and motor mounts except i way to much if the form of power and internal mods to compete in esp even though i did. i usually got 3rd outta 5 cars. im not a newb to autox i just want to get competetive with it. ive probally done 5 or 6 events.

 

[Dallas J]

Well #### this makes me wish i hadnt sold my other car. i had k sport coilovers all the poly bushings and motor mounts except i way to much if the form of power and internal mods to compete in esp even though i did. i usually got 3rd outta 5 cars. im not a newb to autox i just want to get competetive with it. ive probally done 5 or 6 events.

5-6 events is still newb status . My co-driver has about 15 and is still my tire warming lacky (I wonder if he'll read this ). He's about 2-3sec slower depending on the course. Hell, this year in my 6th season Im finding ways to driver faster each event.

I dont really see any reason you cant be competitive in a 1g or 2g locally. It just takes time getting the car sorted while constantly learning how to drive faster lines and figure the course out in earlier runs. I could have sold the talon long ago and switched to a miata but I really like having bunches of power for times Im not dodging cones so a DSM worked well for me.

 

[redleader36]

I own a 95 awd talon and have been modding that for a few years. I also have a 89 civic that i budget-built with an integra engine (120hp; i had it laying around). I have been autocrossing the civic for almost 2 years now and have been working the bugs out of the talon with the hopes of autocrossing that. At a recent event a friend of mine with similar upgrades on his 2g and silimar autocross experience was autocrossing against my civic. he was about 1/2 sec slower than me. Since then i have been contemplating if its worth it to autox the talon. I know it is, it will just take a bit of work.

 

[Scott McIntyre]

DSMs need quite a bit of lovin to get into a happy handling range. Until things get balanced it just likes to under-steer a ton.

I have to agree with Dallas. It takes quite a bit of work to get a DSM handling well. But once you're done, it can be quite competitive. Where I run, class wins are a given and I'm usually in the top 3 overall (raw time).

But if you wanted a competitive car out-of-the-box that's easy to drive and can be made very quick with little modification, it's hard to beat a Miata.

 

[Ludachris]

stick with the dsm subies are nice but they are tuned to the max from the factory major mods are needed to make them fast . dsm 1/4 of the price and little mods make big power

Big power isn't what he's looking for. He's looking for a competitive autocross car. What advice can you give him on autocross?

A DSM might not be competitive right out of the box, but you can definitely get it close. The rules certainly don't favor turbocharged, AWD coupes. But it's fun to compete in these cars nonetheless. And being in Nebraska, I doubt you'll have the sheer amount of competition that regions like NorCal has, so you'd probably be able to do just fine with a DSM.

 

[338vr4]

Big power isn't what he's looking for. He's looking for a competitive autocross car. What advice can you give him on autocross?

A DSM might not be competitive right out of the box, but you can definitely get it close. The rules certainly don't favor turbocharged, AWD coupes. But it's fun to compete in these cars nonetheless. And being in Nebraska, I doubt you'll have the sheer amount of competition that regions like NorCal has, so you'd probably be able to do just fine with a DSM.

I didnt know this guys was runnign in NE. I'm a NE native person and i have auto-x there for a few years. On that note , there was a sweet 1g rs talon there with 275 slicks caged. real nice car. I will also say this do what you think you will have the most fun in. The NE guys are prob one of the nicest guys around.

 

[kainam00]

If you are just starting autocrossing, it doesn't matter what you are driving. In fact, a car that handles poorly will probably teach you to be a much better driver, as it requires you to be smooth and patient - the hardest skills to master. If you have to ask the question you're asking - run the car you have for a few seasons until you know enough about driving to answer it yourself

I've been autocrossing for years in Subarus and BMWs... the Subarus were faster If you follow the scene at all, turbo AWD basically dominates.

 

[lacroixdp]

The 1G isn't a very competitive chassis, IMHO... you can put some work into it and make it a decent handling vehicle. I'd have to agree with the person above that mentioned E30's, however I'd point you towards a '91 318iS. It weights considerably less than the 325iS and can be made to be extremely competitive. I'd also recommend an earlier Miata - they can be had for less than $2K if you look around. If you have a bit of a budget, you could get a MR2 Spyder.

It is certainly possible to make the 1G dance though. There's plenty of guys on here that autocross them successfully. It just wouldn't be on my top 10 list of cars I'd use for autocrossing.

 

[kainam00]

To everyone recommending E30's here... keep in mind that the #1 thing that determines competitiveness of a car in AutoX is the class that it gets put in. The reality is that there is only one class where E30's are very competitive, which is DSP. This class will require some heavy investment in suspension and tires. BMWs, in general, are not very competitive outside the local level, unless you put A TON of money into chassis development and are an excellent driver.

For example an E36 M3 is an awesome car, good power, great handling...etc, but the classes it gets put into either have cars that can fit ridiculously wide tires on stock wheels (RX8's in B-stock) or have 50% more power and AWD (Evo's and STI's).

If you want a competitive car, go look at solo nationals results and get a class winning car.

 

[Dallas J]

If you want a competitive car, go look at solo nationals results and get a class winning car.

Thats pretty much what I said above, and most people who have be racing for a while will say the same thing.

It really comes down to what you want. If you want to have a 1g and auto-x it then go for it. I personally love killing everyone in the only 2g around here that autox's, but if I wanted to be nationally competitive I would never run SM. Id probably pick a c5 z06 and run SS or ASP to run nationally since I like having a fun street car (ie. fast.) and can still be competitive beyond regionally.

 

[ACM]

1Gs are not competitive any longer; 2Gs are a solid base, however it takes a LOT of time and money just to get them to the level of an "out of the box" Strano pony car. Autcross parts don't exist for DSMs, you have to make them yourself, or pay someone else to do so.

First thing is to define competitive - are you looking to trophy with your local no-name club, or trophy at Nationals ? 2nd, do you want to autocross your DSM, or do you want to autocross ? If the former you need a 2G, the latter indicates a MINI or Miata as the weapon of choice.

Autocrossing is 99% driver 1% machinery until you are trying to win Nationals, so it's a complete waste of time and money to run outside the Stock classes - trying to learn how to drive in a fast car is incredibly hard and disillusioning, and takes 2 or three times as long as learning in a slower car (not that a Miata is slower, not in an auto-x context).

Lay out your goals realistically first, then determine the best way forward.

$0.02,
Charles

 

[gixxerdrew]

1Gs are not competitive any longer; 2Gs are a solid base, however it takes a LOT of time and money just to get them to the level of an "out of the box" Strano pony car. Autcross parts don't exist for DSMs, you have to make them yourself, or pay someone else to do so.

First thing is to define competitive - are you looking to trophy with your local no-name club, or trophy at Nationals ? 2nd, do you want to autocross your DSM, or do you want to autocross ? If the former you need a 2G, the latter indicates a MINI or Miata as the weapon of choice.

Autocrossing is 99% driver 1% machinery until you are trying to win Nationals, so it's a complete waste of time and money to run outside the Stock classes - trying to learn how to drive in a fast car is incredibly hard and disillusioning, and takes 2 or three times as long as learning in a slower car (not that a Miata is slower, not in an auto-x context).

Lay out your goals realistically first, then determine the best way forward.

$0.02,
Charles

Im out here racing and I'm working hard to try and create and trickle down technology to get these cars on the podiums everywhere they race.

I think they are actually pretty solid handling cars its just that nobodys thought there is any money in mass producing the parts we need to get them track ready and there has been a big knowledge void for way too long.

 

[Achelea]

Am I allowed to find it Ironic the 1g Rally driver mentions getting a different car?

I think you should keep saving up your money and just keep attending track days, but that's just my 2 cents.

Personally I think 1gs still have potential, but then I drive one, so I'm still partial.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

For example an E36 M3 is an awesome car, good power, great handling...etc, but the classes it gets put into either have cars that can fit ridiculously wide tires on stock wheels (RX8's in B-stock) or have 50% more power and AWD (Evo's and STI's).

If you want a competitive car, go look at solo nationals results and get a class winning car.

Yeah its bullshit, RX8 is allowed to be in STX but the M3 isnt....it runs in STU. Meh oh well, I had to pull some interior anyway for my m3's track use so id be thrown into SM anyway. Point is....SCCA has fallen behind the times in classing on a lot of cars. Although their new "street tire" stock classes is a step in the right direction.

NASA classing is a much better way to do things which is why I track and autocross with them. Plus their a billion times more fun when your there. I still go to SCCA events for suspension and tire tuning, and typically get top 5 overall and pax on street tires even though im supposed to be in SM.


Oh and +1 to Dallas, ive been autocrossing for 7 years and I still learn something every time I go out there.


*cough* cough* 2g GSX in STX mods maxed I think would do really well *cough cough*