Best road racing turbo on 2.4

[Atuca]

Hey guys, I recently purchased a g4cs block, got wiseco .020 over forged internals and eagle rods, and am waiting to build that bad boy.

It is the start of me decomissioning my gsx off the streets and bringing it to the road course. I am curious as to what turbo many of you are running if not listed, as well as what you think of the following turbos:

FP3150
FP3052
FP Green
GT30r

I currently have a e3 16g and like the way it pulls out of corners in my 2.0. On a 2.4, I am looking for big as I can get with similar results, just a bigger pull. I noticed Ludachris is running a 3150 and enjoys it, 3052 is a popular turbo, FP green may be a bit small, and gt30r might be too laggy for road racing.

I do not care about drag strip, going in a line doesn't sound like fun, so I don't need huge, I need big with low spool time. I'd like people who have these turbos, or have been in a friends car they help build and race and have first hand experience if possible, buying a turbo twice is not something I want to do at this price tag.

and if at possible, keep in mind I am building a 2.4 liter, and that should help spool a bigger turbo faster than a 2.0 can. NOTE: I am shooting for wastegate on o2 housing as I have a FP race manifold and don't want to tap one runner, I'd prefer keeping it to the o2 housing with a dump perhaps. So the turbo suggestions need to be kept to stock exhaust manifold bolt pattern. Hot side I don't care obviously, but needs to bolt up to my megan racing 3 inch turbo back. Main Reason I am sticking with the FP30 housing, sounds really good to me. Unless I am holding myself back tremendously by keeping to that housing..

Mods are in my profile, appreciate the input.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

FP3052=GT30R and a FP3150 is a BB 50Trim with a FP hotside on it. If you want the feel of a 16g then you'll want a 50Trim in some shape or form. But it will most likely fall on its face by redline. Since you would be roadracing it, depending on the tracks you planon visiting, lag isn't too much of a problem. You'll almost always be in or around you spool RPM. Plus a little lag really helps you in large sweepers where you can get on the throttle early and hit spool at corner exit so the power doesn't push you wide.

 

[andy4g63]

GT 30R would be my choice. This is the same as 3052 BTW. Only turbine housing is different on 3052. FP makes the best turbos, period. You could evenget DSM HTA 76, but there is small problem: All of these FP turbos come with their 0.68AR DSM bolt-on turbine housing, which is great in terms of flow and craftsmanship, but might cost you an extre lag. Call FP and see if this turbos DSM HTA 76, or 3052 can come in different smaller housing/turbine/. You have stroker anyway and will not be revving sky high. You need the combo, that allows you to keep your gas pedal floored, as much as you can. This makes me think, that GT30R with 0.48 AR turbine housing will be perfect. I would still get the HTA version and if I was you and opt for smaller turbine housing. This should knock spool up time significally in my opinion and will help you meet your goals.

 

[Atuca]

So FP green totally out of the picture?

Does this come down to a 50 trim or 30r battle than? I didn't realize 30r was a fp3052. Would you both say I have got my eyes on two good turbos, or will the 3150 come up short? I couldn't find much info on the 3150, only two threads came up and was surprised to see luda's name come up, the main reason I got an itch for it.

3150 = 49 lbs
3052 = 52 lbs

I got a lot of questions about why this turbo was made. We got soooo many requests for ball bearing 50 trims that we went ahead and built a batch. Looks like most people were willing to live with a little more restrictive housing and a crummy internal gate to save a few hundred bucks for the most part.

The FP3150 BB does spool faster and have a little bit lower boost threshold than the FP3052, the FP3052 can reach another 20-30 whp higher up the dyno chart. Most guys don't use this capacity on the 3052 since they run only 20-22psi. At 20-22psi the 3052 doesnt have any advantage over the 3150.

Boost On!
Robert

from: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=151291049

How about the housing. Instead of leaving the FP30 housing, for a full garrett setup, you guys suggest keeping to the FP housing? I have no problem paying money and doing it right.

I wish I knew more about what I was getting into, but like all the mods done to my car, I've always been ok and learned alot on the way. Thanks guys.

 

[Ludachris]

When I told Robert what I was planning on doing with my car, he suggested the 3150. That's why I run it. Sometimes I'm enamored with the idea of having bigger hp numbers, and the 3052 starts to sound better then. But overall, I think a bb 50-trim is the perfect road race turbo for our cars. Though the 3052 (or GT30R for a non-FP turbo) would be my second choice.

 

[snowborder714]

I wonder how an HX35 would compare. The 7 blade flows 60lb/min (8 blade 52lb/min) and they can reach 20+ psi by 3500rpms in 3rd. These can be had a lot cheaper than an FP.

 

[daren_p]

Like mentioned a 3052 is a Garrett GT 3076 (or GT30R), its just using FP's custom cast SS housing. On the 2.4L I would think the 3052 would be an excellent choice. Now if $ isn't a big concern, I'd probably go with their HTA DSM76. What that is, is basically a 3052 but swapped the compressor wheel for one of their new billet compressor wheels & abit larger compressor cover. The HTA wheel is rated abit higher, believe 57lb/min but because of its design (slightly smaller inducer diameter but machined down hub area to give you a larger inlet area overall, & a few other tricks), it will spool abit quicker vs the std 3052 & have heard gives really nice gain in midrange power/torque, which is exactly what you need for your goals.

The FP green is FP's version of a 50 trim. So probably not a bad choice either but in your case, if spending the extra isn't an issue, then it should be worth it to upgrade to a BB varient.

 

[snowborder714]

I'm guessing the only difference between the HTA 3076R and the HTA DSM76 is the 3076 gives you the option to choose your turbine housing/outlet preference?

Here's a link to the HTA DSM76, in case people want to read more about it:
Forced Performance Turbochargers: FP HTA DSM76 Ball Bearing Turbocharger


Would the 3065 be between the 3052 and DSM76 then? If so, that might be another option.

 

[Atuca]

The DSM76 does look to be pretty pricy. I wish the FP website showed some sort of benchmark instead of a "Here is the turbo, here is the buy now button"

So lets say on a 2.4, the spool of a 3052 shouldn't be too much of an issue. Anyone got an idea what rpm it would hit full boost. I havn't decided on a boost number because I have no idea what I can/should boost on 91 or 110 (assuming I can find 110 around here in cali) Only thing I do know is I want to avoid meth at all cost. don't want that on my mind at the track.

3150 $1399
3052 costs $1465
DSM76 costs $1699

all with FP30 exhaust housing, so that can be bolted to my downpipe without much problem and soves the tial wastegate placement issue.

so we are talking a good 200 dollars between 3052 and DSM76, for what exactly? 200 rpm faster spool, or 200 rpm spool and 50 more whp? Or is it more noticeable.
and between those turbos, can anyone get some numbers on when they spool and what their HP numbers are rated for? Or are they all in the same 400-500HP range. from what robert said, only difference betwen is 3150 and 3052 is 20-30whp. I don't think that is worth it for the 400rpm difference in hitting max boost im finding.

I never thought I be running a 2.4 motor but it sort of just fell into my hands (short story version, sold a door handle to a local guy, he calls me 3 months later and says I got a motor for you, do you want it? Weird eh?)

If I can find more people on the DSM76 bandwagon I am ok with that I suppose, as long as spool won't be dramatically different from the FP3150.

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Don't rule out the hx/hy35 or hx40. I plan on running that on my car, and just keep the rpm's high, because this car was built for 8500-9000 rpm. So I can just corner in a lower gear and have the spool exiting. There are lot of other things involved, but that turbo, the hx40, will be a beast up top, and kill in the long straight aways. Thats why i chose a 2.0 rather than 2.4.

James

 

[Ludachris]

The DSM76 does look to be pretty pricy. I wish the FP website showed some sort of benchmark instead of a "Here is the turbo, here is the buy now button"

So lets say on a 2.4, the spool of a 3052 should be too much of an issue. Anyone got an idea what rom it would hit full boost. I havn't decided on a boost number because I have no idea what I can/should boost on 91 or 110 (assuming I can find 110 around here in cali) Only thing I do know is I want to avoid meth at all cost. don't want that on my mind at the track.

3150 $1399
3052 costs $1465
DSM76 costs $1699

all with FP30 exhaust housing, so that can be bolted to my downpipe without much problem and soves the tial wastegate placement issue.

so we are talking a good 200 dollars between 3052 and DSM76, for what exactly? 200 rpm faster spool, or 200 rpm spool and 50 more whp? Or is it more noticeable.
and between those turbos, can anyone get some numbers on when they spool and what their HP numbers are rated for? Or are they all in the same 400-500HP range. from what robert said, only difference betwen is 3150 and 3052 is 20-30whp. I don't think that is worth it for the 400rpm difference in hitting max boost im finding.

I never thought I be running a 2.4 motor but it sort of just fell into my hands (short story version, sold a door handle to a local guy, he calls me 3 months later and says I got a motor for you, do you want it? Weird eh?)

If I can find more people on the DSM76 bandwagon I am ok with that I suppose, as long as spool won't be dramatically different from the FP3150.

Call up FP and ask some of those questions. Maybe that's all it will take. Be sure to let them know exactly what you'll be doing with the car and what is most important to you. Any turbo will be a compromise. It just depends what you want to compromise on. I think spool and midrange will be more important than top end power for most road racers. Share with us what they tell you.

One thing on the FP turbine housing - I found that the placement of the wastegate will require some sort of heat shield for the aluminum wastegate housing. I just got my 44mm back from Tial after having it repaired. It seems the heat all but melted the diaphram. The guy asked me how I was able to turn a black wastegate gold in color... I answered - road racing. I'm planning on buying some of that gold reflective tape and wrapping the aluminum portion of the wastegate to see if that helps. I'm also going to redesign the O2 housing and downpipe and wrapping it with header wrap.

Road racing creates a lot of heat guys.

As for the FP3150, I really like this turbo. I've been running 20psi on my 2.3L with 91 octane with great results. I have been planning on converting to E85 at some point, but believe me, the power this car has is plenty for most of the road courses I've been on. The 4.5 mile Miller track is the only one I ran on where I felt the car needed something - and most likely it just needed aero, not more power. The 3/4 mile long straight was intense. I'll have to dyno it pretty soon to see where it's at. I really can't see what the benefit would be of moving up to a FP3052 except for more top end - and at what expense?

 

[Atuca]

I just got off the phone with FP.

The guy I talked to wouldn't give me too much detail except said "they are all the same league of turbo" He said they all hit max boost before 4k, but couldn't give me a number for the differences between them all. All he really said was DSM76 is the best of the three.

I ruled out the 3052 knowing the DSM76 is the same turbo with better internals.

What it comes down to in the end is top end power, and how much I need. I live in california, so the tracks I am looking at is leguna seca, infineon raceway, maybe some others.

I can't recall infineon's layout, but leguna seca I know has several straight aways, along with its share of hair pin turns. What you said Ludachris is exactly what I fear, is that on those straight aways I am going to want more, and that every second I could have saved with a bigger turbo up top will make me doubt the 3150 purchase.

Now, honestly money aside, I am trying to make a descion based solely on the performance of the turbo. This may be a long shot, but is there anyone from California who has experience on the tracks around here that could share some input? I am scared to drive out on my stock 7 bolt and 16g and blow any chance I have at reselling to make up some of the new motors cost. Besides the fact, without knowing the difference betwen the turbos first hand, it wouldn't help me make a descion anyways.

I just took my hour lunch, talked to some friends, and now I am leaning twards the 3150 again. I don't think this turbo descion is going to be easy as I thought it was going to be. Hopefully i can get some more chime ins after everyone gets off work this evening.


------

As for the tial overheating....

That is uncomforting. I already have plans to get the RRE hood vent, but I don't have any ideas for cooling that part of the engine. Getting those kinds of results back may take a while Luda, but I'll be sure to keep an eye out for the thread you post on it.

 

[snowborder714]

I am scared to drive out on my stock 7 bolt and 16g and blow any chance I have at reselling to make up some of the new motors cost.

Wimp.

You won't blow anything as long as it's in good running order. I already told you that you should go out with this setup just to get a feel for the car and how it runs. You may be fine with it as is for now, that way you don't have to decide so soon. A 16g doesn't feel so powerful on the street, but you put it on a track and it's a different beast. The autox I was in last summer was the same way. My car was more than I could handle out there, but because of this I learned how to tame it.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

Would the 3065 be between the 3052 and DSM76 then? If so, that might be another option.

FP3052 is a straight GT3076R with a FP housing on it. Rated at 52lb/min

The DSM76 is a GT3076R with the HTA wheel that increases spool up, horsepower and longevity of the turbo while properly maintained. Rated at 57lb/min.

The FP3065 is a GT3088R (AKA: GT3040). This is a GT30 compressor wheel attatched to a GT4088 exhaust wheel (this is where the 40 in the nick name comes from). It's the same wheel that's in some of the GT35 turbos. This combo is rated at 65lb/min just like a GT35R. Very interesting turbo but hardly anyone runs the Garrett model of it.

Hope this helps.

 

[95GSXBLUR]

I'm gonna throw in my .02

Get a Borg Warner S256 if you want a badass all around turbo. I'm running the 258 and I have full boost by 4000 (35psi on E85).

Mods in profile. Last 1/4 mile time is current - which was only on 25psi. once the new clutch goes in, back to the 35psi I was on.

the Borg Warner's are EXTREMELY cost effective, they can be rebuilt, they have AMAZING COMPRESSOR MAPS. My S258 is a 63lbs/min turbo. their pricing is extremely competitive (if not less expensive than the ones mentioned above) and you should strongly consider them.

PM me for pricing/availability. I'm not just saying this because I'm trying to sell you something either. People are seriously under estimating these BWs. This turbo is the best turbo I've ran by far (7th on my car alone). My information on this turbo is 100% NO BS and it's come STRAIGHT from me and my car alone.

I'll be more than happy to answer any questions you might have.

 

[kahl23]

I love my 3052 (although if I was buying now, I'd go with the DSM76). You notice a bit of lag compared to the 16G (which is what I had before), but it's not much and as has already been mentioned, that's a good thing in the twistys to keep you from getting on the power too early. These turbos also make great power even when they're only pumping out low 20's for psi. The quarter mile time in my profile was done on an untuned engine at 23 psi. As for the heat, I recommend you check out DEI's turbo blanket. It wraps around the exhaust side and helps keep down the heat. Then I suggest wrapping the wastegate with some of their exhaust wrap for protection. The gold foil is the most efficient reflector of heat, but the problem is that in your case, you're sticking the foil TO something that's going to be around 1,000 degrees. While the foil can withstand higher temperatures, the adhesive can't. It will probably work for a few weeks and then peel off.

 

[kahl23]

The FP3065 is a GT3088R (AKA: GT3040). This is a GT30 compressor wheel attatched to a GT4088 exhaust wheel (this is where the 40 in the nick name comes from). It's the same wheel that's in some of the GT35 turbos. This combo is rated at 65lb/min just like a GT35R. Very interesting turbo but hardly anyone runs the Garrett model of it.

Hope this helps.

Also, this doesn't make sense to me, if it was a GT40 exhaust wheel, wouldn't be a GT4076R? AFAIK, Garrett nomenclature goes turbine wheel|compressor wheel|Bearing system. I.E. a GT3076R is a GT30 turbine wheel with a 76mm compressor wheel with ball bearings, and a GT4088 is a GT40 exhaust wheel with an 88mm compressor wheel and journal bearings (no R suffix). I always thought that the FP3065 was a GT30 turbine wheel with a 82mm compressor wheel normally found on GT35 turbos. I would also be surprised if a GT40 turbine wheel would fit in a housing made for a GT30 turbine wheel. Then again, you might be right, I'm by no means sure of this.

Edit: I took this from the FP page on the FP3065, which seems to indicate it is indeed a GT30R turbine wheel.
Forced Performance Turbochargers: DSM FP3065 Ball Bearing Turbocharger

The heart of the FP30 series turbochargers is the Garrett Ballistic Concepts GT30 cartridge, or CHRA (Center Housing Rotating Assembly). These are great cartridges, full ball bearing design lets them spin in a light breeze. Their low inertia turbine blades contribute to rapid shaft acceleration. The flow capacity and high efficiency of these newly engineered turbine blades is hard to believe for a wheel of its size.

The GT30 turbine wheel is smaller in diameter than the Mitsubishi TD06 and TD06H turbine wheels, but flows far more, allowing greater boost pressure without unfavorably high ratios of exhaust to intake pressure. To put it simply, the intake manifold pressure stays higher than the exhaust manifold pressure under a wider range of operating conditions. This is good.

Edit x2: Also, the turbine housings between the FP3052 and FP3065 are the same, whereas the compressor covers are different, which again implies that the difference between them is not on the turbine side but on the compressor side.

 

[Atuca]

Something that will help me make a descion would be knowing what rpm level these turbos hit full boost, say set at 22 lbs.

DSM76

FP3150


I appreciate that info on these other turbos, but which ones flows more air and has higher peak HP numbers means nothing to me if I can't see it boosting til past 4k. For road racing I need something that gets up and going quick, think e3 16g. If you want to suggest a turbo, can you give me some more info on why you chose that turbo over others, and when you see full boost? Also those of you with 2.0 liters or saying I should keep the RPMS up, I have a 2.4 motor so it isn't going to see much over 7k much. I lose the top end space for a big turbo to spool and go wild, I need my turbo peak rpms to be in the 4k-7k area (something the hks 272/272s should be happy with).

Now I am no pro, but if two turbos both hit 20 psi at 3.5k rpms but one flows more than the other, than I would see more HP earlier than the other? Is that correct? Or is there more I need to take into consideration? I imagine I will run a lower boost and a higher timing tune to get more torque; I am just taking an educated guess. So turbos that run 40 psi are way overkill for my setup I think.

And I do want to just note, this process is very overwhelming. Every turbo besides the 3 I mentioned at the start of this thread I have never heard of, so trying to read and search and understand them all will take me some time understanding. So once again, sorry I am a n00b

 

[kahl23]

Something that will help me make a descion would be knowing what rpm level these turbos hit full boost, say set at 22 lbs.

DSM76

FP3150


I appreciate that info on these other turbos, but which ones flows more air and has higher peak HP numbers means nothing to me if I can't see it boosting til past 4k. For road racing I need something that gets up and going quick, think e3 16g. If you want to suggest a turbo, can you give me some more info on why you chose that turbo over others, and when you see full boost? Also those of you with 2.0 liters or saying I should keep the RPMS up, I have a 2.4 motor so it isn't going to see much over 7k much. I lose the top end space for a big turbo to spool and go wild, I need my turbo peak rpms to be in the 4k-7k area (something the hks 272/272s should be happy with).

I can only give you some comparative/speculative information on spool, so take this with a grain of salt, but here goes. On our FP3052 bolted to a 2.0 we reach 23psi below 4k, I want to say 3.8k, but I have no logs at school with me. Now, the DSM76HTA compressor wheel has a few advantages over the 3052. It is lighter and better designed than the standard wheel, both of which contribute to faster spool. That billet wheel, combined with the extra displacement of the 2.4l motor, should give you 22psi well below 4k, just how far below I couldn't say, it really depends on the individual setup.

Now I am no pro, but if two turbos both hit 20 psi at 3.5k rpms but one flows more than the other, than I would see more HP earlier than the other? Is that correct? Or is there more I need to take into consideration? I imagine I will run a lower boost and a higher timing tune to get more torque; I am just taking an educated guess. So turbos that run 40 psi are way overkill for my setup I think.

Yes basically. If you have two turbos that both spool similarly but one flows more than the other at a given pressure ratio that will give you more power. Power isn't taken from psi, it's taken from flow. In your example, in order for the lower flowing turbo to flow as much as the higher flowing turbo, it would have to run at a higher pressure ratio (PSI). That turbo is less efficient and will heat the air more, as it is working harder to get the same flow. This means that the turbo that flows more at the same psi is more efficient and will allow you to run more timing and produce more power at a given pressure ratio.
You definitely don't want to run 40 psi. What I would do is figure out how much power you want and then convert that into flow, typically 10 lb/min=100hp, but that's a really rough estimate. Then, find a turbo that meets your flow/power goals at a reasonable pressure ratio (22psi is what you said you wanted) and provides fast spool. Sorry if that was a little confusing, I typed that about 3 times trying to make it more eloquent, but I'm still not happy with it. However, its the best I can do now, so let me know if you need clarification on anything.

 

[Evan K.]

This may be a long shot, but is there anyone from California who has experience on the tracks around here that could share some input? I am scared to drive out on my stock 7 bolt and 16g and blow any chance I have at reselling to make up some of the new motors cost. Besides the fact, without knowing the difference betwen the turbos first hand, it wouldn't help me make a descion anyways.

Yeah me

What do you want to know?

 

[BoostFrenzy]

Also, this doesn't make sense to me, if it was a GT40 exhaust wheel, wouldn't be a GT4076R? AFAIK, Garrett nomenclature goes turbine wheel|compressor wheel|Bearing system. I.E. a GT3076R is a GT30 turbine wheel with a 76mm compressor wheel with ball bearings, and a GT4088 is a GT40 exhaust wheel with an 88mm compressor wheel and journal bearings (no R suffix). I always thought that the FP3065 was a GT30 turbine wheel with a 82mm compressor wheel normally found on GT35 turbos. I would also be surprised if a GT40 turbine wheel would fit in a housing made for a GT30 turbine wheel. Then again, you might be right, I'm by no means sure of this.

Oops. Guess that's what I get for posting on my phone :/. It is indeed a GT40 COMPRESSOR wheel. And the name for it isn't the "GT3088R" it's "GT3082R". Again, my bad fellas.

 

[kahl23]

Oops. Guess that's what I get for posting on my phone :/. It is indeed a GT40 COMPRESSOR wheel. And the name for it isn't the "GT3088R" it's "GT3082R". Again, my bad fellas.

No prob, glad we cleared that up. Not to keep ragging on you, but I believe it's actually a GT35 compressor wheel. The GT40 doesn't come with an 82mm comp wheel, the smallest sized GT40 is an 88mm wheel. The GT35 comes (from Garrett at least) exclusively with the 82mm comp wheel. Check it out, remember the last 2 numbers on a turbos name are the compressor exducer diameter.
TurboByGarrett.com - Turbochargers

 

[Atuca]

Yeah me

What do you want to know?

Hey Evan.

The info I am looking for in particular is what turbo you run, how is the lag, what psi are you running, and in California in particular, what tracks do you run on and if you could go back and redo your setup, what turbo would you pick.

Ludachris said in particular he had only one track with a 3/4 mile straight away he wish he had a bigger turbo for, but otherwise was happy with his FP3150.

Are there tracks around here you would recommend a certain turbo? Are there more turns where a FP3150 spool would be handy, or are there more straightaways where a DSM76 would be better.

or what is your preferrence, as I initially stated.

Thanks for the input

 

[BoostFrenzy]

No prob, glad we cleared that up. Not to keep ragging on you, but I believe it's actually a GT35 compressor wheel. The GT40 doesn't come with an 82mm comp wheel, the smallest sized GT40 is an 88mm wheel. The GT35 comes (from Garrett at least) exclusively with the 82mm comp wheel. Check it out, remember the last 2 numbers on a turbos name are the compressor exducer diameter.
TurboByGarrett.com - Turbochargers

Not according to AGP. Misprint?

And Atuca, Evan runs a FP3052 last time I checked. But I too would like to know how he likes the FP3052 on Nor/SoCal tracks.

 

[daren_p]

The 3065 (or the Garrett 3082 in a FP turbine housing) is larger then the 3052 or DSM76 & will be laggier, which is probably something you won't be interested in. With my 3052 I see 20psi right around the 4000rpm mark, this is with the stock 2.0L & nothing done to get the turbo to spool abit faster as I was fwd last year. With the 2.4 I would think 300-400rpm quicker spool would be hard to see & I have no real world data on the DSM76 but I bet you see 20psi by 3500, or abit less, no problem. Basically like an evoIII 16g on a 2.0L. Like I said the HTA series of turbos also show very nice improvements in the midrange power/torque, which is exactly what you should be after. Again, if you weren't concerd with $, the DSM76 would be my turbo of choice for your application.