Race Groups for DSMs

[Slow old poop]

We've mostly been discussing NASA TT classes in this forum. Only Greg C, our spiritual leader, actually RACES in a race group. My question is:

In which race groups are DSMs eligible to compete?

More specifically, into what race group would my TTB-legal Eclipse GSX fit?
Production Touring?
Which class?
Against Greg Collier? (Oh, no!)

What mods would I have to do to make it competitive in a race group?

We had a big discussion last year about this time concerning where DSMs fit, and a possible class just for DSMs, but so few DSMs have come out it doesn't seem likely that we'll get our own group. So, if I wanted to race the DSM, where would be the best place and what do I have to do to get competitive?

Rich

 

[Elvenhome21]

scca GT or Improved Touring are virtually the only groups that we can fit into being turbo fwd with the mods we do. Your mod list might work with IT. There again you have to have a full cage to race in scca.
Download scca's rule book (its like 15mb) or just download individual classes

Mavisky posted:SCCA Street Mod or our regional Street Mod Street Tire class
I haven't ever heard of these classes but you might want to ask him for more info

Plus with the production class I believe they have a wierd rule that your car can be at most 5 production years old to be newly lisensed, after 5 years, if the car was lisensed before it can be grandfathered in for up to 10 total production years old.

In Wisconsin I know you can race at least 15 times a year between RA, black hawk, and miller parks solo events

 

[lethal_vr4]

Rich you would fit under NASA PT-B. It is setup the same way at the Time Trials (TT) with points to class your car. PT will accept any car.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Rich, like lethal_Vr4 said, the Performance Touring class uses the same points and classing structure as the Time Trials. This would most likely be the best place to race. SCCA has NO WHERE that your car would legally fit, however there can be exeptions locally if you talk to the director. Other than PT, you would have to go to Super Unlimited, which is where Greg C. races.

The great thing about NASA is they have a clear defined path from HPDE to TT to W2W racing.

 

[mavisky]

Elvenhome, those classes are for SOLO 2 or autoxing.

With NASA there's the PT classes that are very similar to the Time Trial classes in modifications.

 

[Defiant]

I wish there were some class for passengers besides rallye (and they're too busy working anyway). I'd love to get a tour around some tracks with Greg. I could test my Depends for stress factors.

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

I wish there were some class for passengers besides rallye (and they're too busy working anyway). I'd love to get a tour around some tracks with Greg. I could test my Depends for stress factors.

 

[mavisky]

Actually some of the HPDE classes allow passengers.

 

[Slow old poop]

I've decided to prep the car for Production Touring (PTB, probably, since I am in TTB now) and go racin' next season! Somebody else can have the TTB National Championship.

Rich

 

[drivemusicnow]

Something to remember is that the safety rules and regulations between race classes and time trial classes are fairly different.

 

[Slow old poop]

Something to remember is that the safety rules and regulations between race classes and time trial classes are fairly different.

We know. This discussion came up on the forum last year, but it's probably lost in the Thread Graveyard since it is so old.

We would, of course, appreciate any insight anyone has in fitting or buying the various equipment, or any links that folks might remember to those old threads.

The car already has a full legal cage and five-pt harnesses, so we figure we need:

Tow hooks front and rear (where to attach them?)
Ignition/power cutoff switch (I have a switch. Not sure how to do the alternator disconnect)
Remove steering wheel key lock (How you do dat?)
Install quick-disconnect steering wheel (I have the release gadget, but it doesn't bolt to my Sparco wheel)
Fire extinguisher (currently mounted between the seats. Hope that's OK)
Window netting (do they come in a model that fits a DSM window opening?)
Probably new harnesses (Mine are fairly old)
Kirkey seat for the passenger (is this a safety item?)
New legal roll cage padding
Seat back braces

Can't think of anything else that's safety oriented. What did I miss?

It would be a kick if we could establish some sort of How-to section on this forum for road race prep, where all of this stuff (and much else) could be covered, with pix and text. I know that Greg C has offered a ton of advice and posted lots of photos, but they are all over the place in two dozen different threads. Maybe one of the listkeepers could (with our help, of course) sift through the old threads on brakes, tires and other mods, delete all the smart-ass and unhelpful posts, and set up a special, helpful section of how-tos.

Or maybe Greg C and I can write a book (he writes, I edit) on road racing DSMs.

Rich

 

[Greg Collier]

Rich, I had a lengthy discussion with Greg Greenbaum at the race this past weekend regarding classing the turbo cars and the two "new" PT classes below SU. For 2007 the SU class will be limited to tube frame and Rolex series type chassis only. There will be two classes below SU that will be production-framed cars with a certain criteria for modifications including running a DOT Hoosier (not race slicks). We'll have to see what Dr. Greenbaum has in mind by the end of this month, and yes I will no longer be in SU...

 

[drivemusicnow]

I'm a little confused. They are restricting what cars are allowed in SU now? and then putting everyone who doesn't fall into the new requirements into Performance touring? soo, we would have PTB, PTA, PTAA (or however they label the new classes), PTAAA, PTU... and you would, most likely fall into the PTU class?

Hmm

And oh yeah, if anyone knows how to remove the steering lock, I'd like to get some idea of what I'm going to be attempting this weekend.

 

[Elvenhome21]

Slowoldpoop: as far as the steering wheel lock, you have to take the column apart; those two blank head screws are pain in the butt to get loose. I was fortunate enough that they were loose to begin with but you can tack weld a smaller bolt to the head and crack them loose, or try drilling them out. (I'm am doing this from memory) once you get those bolts out I cant think of anything else that's in the way except the wiper/signal (you can keep that assembly with the column after you get the ignition lock off, in a service manual they give you a wiring diagram on how the wires go together with the switches. then you can have switch ignition with push button start. I guess there is one more way to get rid of the lock is to take the wires off the back like above, put the key in the on position and cut key off leaving just a 1/4 inch or so, so you can use a pliers if something with the steering lock go's funky but it shouldn't.

With the quick disconnect steering wheel, I don't know how you have your sparco attached but you can do one of two ways that I can think of.
1. You can buy one of these from speedway or where ever

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they are setup to be welded to 5/8 shaft, the splines on a dsm are just under 5/8 so you can weld it directly to the splines but then you are going to have to fabricate some kind of dual pattern plate to convert 3 bolt to 6 bolt with flat head cap screws or
Item 270041514839 on ebay. I don't know if the 3 bolt pattern is correct but that's an easy fix.

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2. Buy an ebay quick release item 270052137949, However I have no idea if this would pass tech inspection. I guess it should because it is a quick release but it's up to the official's discretion. http://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/bumimoto/SWQR_RD_BUMI1.jpg

With the cut off switch, hook it directly to the hot battery terminal so when its thrown its cuts everything, the only thing you have to watch out for is with the electric fans, (if you use a relay for your fans its not a problem but if you don't you will. when you flip the cutoff switch and you have your fan switch on and ignition on, the fans by free spinning will create power while they coast to a stop and keep the car running for a few seconds until the fans stop. That's why if you have the relays your fine, (cut power to relay = acts like switch turned off)

As for the Tow Hook, Greg C. has it attached to the underside of the bumper which is good enough.

With the window net (depends on if its a street car) the mounting is always a challenge, if the door opens you have to find a way to attach it to the top of the door as close to the top as you can. If the doors are gutted drop the remains through the window slot and attach underneath the sill. For me it's real easy if it's an enduro car. We have to weld the doors shut, so I just weld a gm buckle flat to the roof above the door frame in the front of the roof. Then I put a 3/8 id tube 1 inch long on the other side of the window net. For the bottom you can use 1 inch by 1/8 strap and either mount it to the outside the door or through the window slot to the inside door skin. If you don't mind the look of pop rivets you can use 3/16 steel rivets from the outside in through the steel. There is plenty of strength with steel rivets if you space them out 1 in apart for the whole length. I have seen that done and I have done it on my Limited Late Model and tech inspectors don't question it as long as it looks professional and done with enough rivets, or use flat head cap screws if you want absolutely no questions about it.

Speedway sells a nice top piece kit that is low profile.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/xq/as...Id.244/displayId.3465/qx/ProductLargeView.htm

As for fire extinguisher as long as it is mounted close enough to you that you can reach it and far enough so you don't hit it, and mounted with a metal bracket with a quick release your fine. Oh 5 lb minimum in almost all racing.

For belts 2 or 3 years is about the most for any sanctioned events. When you buy new ones I recommend Impact belts (I have always trusted them) if you can get belts with a double sub straps do, I'm not going to go in-depth with why but it is a proven fact by Simpson that 2 belts are better than one and 3 belts are the absolutly the best. Plus with two belts, it fits better in the groin, so in an accident your thighs take more of the impact and not the johnson.

Helmets SHOULD be snell 2000 at minimum, if your buying a new one soon get one with SA2005 (no headsock required then)
I think last year was the very last year snell 95 were allowed. If you can find a snell 2000 for cheap enough it should be good for probably another 2 years. If your considering doing a lot of long races especially at RA you might want to think about a air charger style helmet, it helps a ton in summer, even in fall (keep shield from fogging)

Roll Bar Padding USE THE RIGHT STUFF...... Do NOT USE PLMBING INSULATION!!
it might feel like it will work but when you hit, let say a wall from the side. At 50 mph the mass of an arm or helmet is multiplied so many times that plmbing insulation will smush to nothing and do nothing to slow the impact down to cushion the blow. The purpose of roll bar padding is to prevent a helmet or limb from hitting the solid metal underneath, period. It spreads and slows the point of impact.

Gauges
Oil and Fuel pressure gauges if they are mechanical MUST have an isolator before the line comes through the fire wall. I am speaking from experience, i had a fuel line rupture (Stainless Braided Line even) right behind the gauges and the fuel started on fire and made a big fire ball inside the car. It did a crap load of damage. Oil isn't nearly as bad but it can cause a big slippery mess that will take weeks to clean up. $85 to prevent a fire that causes $1000 worth of damage, cheap insurance

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If I think of anything else I will post in.

 

[drivemusicnow]

First of all, Rep points for elvenhome. Thanks for the info.


Personally I would recommend a fire supression system. Yes, it costs more, Yes, it is a pain to install, and weighs more... But if investing as much time and money as well are into these cars, I'm going to make damn sure that it doesn't burn to the ground, or burn me in the process. a 2 nozzle halon 1301 system isn't that expensive, and could save you a lot of pain, and money later.


Rich,

I was wondering who you had fabricate/fix your roll cage. I've been tossing around a couple different ideas on how I want to do this, and have come up with 2 options. 1) buy a bolt in autopower kit, and then have a professional welder weld it in, or 2) spend a boatload of bucks on a custom cage. I just want to find someone that I would trust to weld the cage, and that I can have the cage done for a relatively decent price.

 

[Slow old poop]

First of all, Rep points for elvenhome. Thanks for the info.


Rich,

I was wondering who you had fabricate/fix your roll cage. I've been tossing around a couple different ideas on how I want to do this, and have come up with 2 options. 1) buy a bolt in autopower kit, and then have a professional welder weld it in, or 2) spend a boatload of bucks on a custom cage. I just want to find someone that I would trust to weld the cage, and that I can have the cage done for a relatively decent price.

It is a universal Kirk bolt in cage, but the right side interferes with the passenger. We had it fixed two weeks ago by cutting it apart and moving the right side down pipes six inches to the right. Cost a fortune to get it fixed!

The fabricator in Cedar Rapids says he can build a full cage for about $1200

Rich

 

[RusherRacing]

Rich, I had a lengthy discussion with Greg Greenbaum at the race this past weekend regarding classing the turbo cars and the two "new" PT classes below SU. For 2007 the SU class will be limited to tube frame and Rolex series type chassis only. There will be two classes below SU that will be production-framed cars with a certain criteria for modifications including running a DOT Hoosier (not race slicks). We'll have to see what Dr. Greenbaum has in mind by the end of this month, and yes I will no longer be in SU...

Hum can't wait for the new rules to come out. I won't actually be racing in "PT" classes next year since I will still be learning the ropes of road racing. However I would like my car competitively classed and be able to learn and grow on the same platform.

Also is a quick couple steering wheel required in NASA. I must have missed that when reading the rules. I was planning on installing one in the future however it may now be sooner than later.

 

[Greg Collier]

Also is a quick couple steering wheel required in NASA. I must have missed that when reading the rules. I was planning on installing one in the future however it may now be sooner than later.

No it's not required...

 

[Slow old poop]

Also is a quick couple steering wheel required in NASA. I must have missed that when reading the rules. I was planning on installing one in the future however it may now be sooner than later.

Like Greg says, no you don't need that.

One of NASA's huge problems is a lack of communication. All the information is there, but you really got to dig for it, or have a bunch of friendlies (like us) explain it to you.

In a nutshell, you can run HPDEs and TT in a bone-stock car. You ain't gotta do nuttin to pass NASA tech except bring an approved helmet to the track.

I think it's insane to allow cars in open passing groups like that, but I don't write the rules. We all recommend that you do things to make your car safer--such as a roll bar, 5-pt harness, brakes, tires, etc. -- but the rules don't require any such stuff. You don't need any safety equipment at all until you get into race groups, such as Production Touring.

NASA rules and CCRs are lilke IBM manuals: that is, they are for people who already know everything, and just need some place to look up details. And, like IBM manuals, NASA rules and CCRs don't have a Chapter 1: Getting Started. Nowhere will you find a good explanation of how you move up from HPDE to TT to race groups. It's all in there...somewhere. I don't understand why NASA does not realize that there are dozens if not hundreds of potential racers like you who have all the wrong ideas about what NASA does and don't realize what a great program they really have. NASA really needs to go into promotion mode and EXPLAIN what they do.

My recommendation is to make a pest of yourself (like I do) and ask any silly, stupid question you like here or on the NASA forums. If you don't understand the rules, just ask. Don't assume anything.

Rich

 

[Elvenhome21]

I am not familiar with any of nasa's rules. I honestly have never heard of the until mfba at Road America in oct. the only rules I know are scca's and circle track which are full blown race cars.

I thought of some more safety Items and Ideas.

As far as fire systems, yeah they are nice but I have a halon system in my limited with three nozzles I really hate the setup because
1. halon puts out fire great but, it can kill you at the same time. You have about 5 seconds to get out of the car and at least ten feet away, unless you don't want to breathe right for the next 3-4 days (been there done that).
2. I have had 2 fires in my car and have never set the system off because there was no use (three nozzles pointed at driver, when fire is in engine compartment or in trunk)
3. if you think the system is the way your going to go fine, but put one nozzle in the engine compartment close to the oil and fuel line (most fires are from here or from the bottom end blowing) then one in the trunk, and one in the drivers compartment either down by the feet or on the passenger side pointed towards the waist area. SO if you do set it off you get the two main fire areas contained and if the fire migrates you got the nozzle in the drivers compartment that is far enough away that it will give you a couple more seconds to get a clean breathe yet. Then keep a 5 lb portable mounted with a quick release next to your seat in between the door and the seat. So if there is a tiny fire (brakes or tiny oil dribble on the header) you can do a quick small blast without wasting the system. Or if someone else has a fire on the car even in the pits it works great. (everycar has one and you don't know where everyone keeps an extinguisher in thier trailer) (if htey have one even)

Next would be for a racing seat. Kirkey makes a really nice containment seat but at $1000, out of a lot of people's price range. But no fear as long as you get shoulder, head, and leg supports for the seat (a $100) you get similar results just not as perfect as the containment seat. I strongly suggest the shoulder supports at minimum. They will prevent you from shattering ribs. Your shoulders can take quite a blow and hardly feel it afterwards, versus cracking a rib by sliding into a wall sideways at only 50 mph.

Some Groups require steering wheel pads, which is the dumbest rule in the last 15 years. It was setup for when the old dirt modifieds ran lap belts only or no belts and open face helmets. Nowadays if a 5 point stretches last far a broken nose or jaw is the least of your worries.

I personally use a D-Cel when racing (similar to a hutchens) it offers a tremendous amount of forward and side impact protection. I am dead set against neck collars, they can actually CAUSE a broken neck because it acts like a wedge and pops (stretches your neck a part). The reason why they came about was to prevent so many guys from breaking their collar bone by the helmet. http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/general/
Go through these pages and read all the tech articles on safety they have a ton of information, granted it's based on circle track but half of a road course is a circle track.

I recommend good driving gloves, not necessarily sparcos but spend at least $60-70 on a pair of gloves, the bottom dollar gloves are not form fitted so when you grab the steering wheel you always get the bulge of extra material.

Shoes don't wear street shoes, at minimum get a pair of wrestling shoes if not simpsons. You will NOT regret it.

Seat belts: Y belts are no longer allowed ANYWHERE that they check the date stamp. Always use individual strap belts; I personally like the belts that wrap around the roll bar for the top ones. They are seemingly more comfortable because they don't tend to pinch your neck.

If you are putting in two racing seats, get a piece of roll bar tubing or conduit and mount it so the passenger has something to hang on to. When my dad was with me on the straight-aways he would always have to unclench and stretch his hand because there was noting to hang on to.

When you mount your seat, use GRADE 5 or better bolts ONLY. With big washers on both sides, the floor boards are seemingly strong enough (haven't had a problem yet) as long as you use fender washers. But try to mount through that floor support if you can.

If you are going to have a passenger you should get or make a scatter shield, if you don't have room around the tranny, at least put something on the floor board/ firewall, 1/8 in steel or 1/4 alum. Is good enough.

Wheel studs lug nuts, I strongly suggest using 1/2 wheel studs get good quality ones. Along with 1in lug nuts, makes life a lot simpler and safer. I realize the difference between 12mmx1.5 and 1/2-20 is only like .035 but when you buy them new YOU KNOW that they aren't stretched or fatigued.

also with the cutoff switch you can use two, one as a battery disconnect (use for storing car and doesn't drain battery) and one as a emergency shut off, the e-shutoff use to cut power to the main power line that power all the switches. That shutoff can be one of those Wal-Mart plastic ones.

If you have a passenger you might be required to have 2 window nets.

Switches I recommend not using the fancy aircraft style flip cover switches, yes they look nice but suck in a racing environment because if you tap another car or just the vibrations can make the cover flip shut and kill all power, makes for a long day if you got to hold the switch on. Another thing with switches, do NOT use the plastic switch, use the heavy duty all metal ones. Those stay on and won't break like the plastic ones can. (They also still work if you have a fire.)

Steering wheels, road racing is setup to be mostly non contact sport but you find walls more often the cars so I will just inform people that you can prevent a broken thumb with a solid steering wheel speedway sells one for $80

 

[Slow old poop]

I am not familiar with any of nasa's rules. I honestly have never heard of the until mfba at Road America in oct. the only rules I know are scca's and circle track which are full blown race cars.

Holy mackeral! Where did you come from?

It is great to hear advice like that from somebody who clearly knows what he's talking about. Hope to see you at the next Midwest event. Hope you ain't in my class, though

Rich

 

[mavisky]

Agreed, someone get this man above newb ranks.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Switches I recommend not using the fancy aircraft style flip cover switches, yes they look nice but suck in a racing environment because if you tap another car or just the vibrations can make the cover flip shut and kill all power, makes for a long day if you got to hold the switch on. Another thing with switches, do NOT use the plastic switch, use the heavy duty all metal ones. Those stay on and won't break like the plastic ones can. (They also still work if you have a fire.)

Steering wheels, road racing is setup to be mostly non contact sport but you find walls more often the cars so I will just inform people that you can prevent a broken thumb with a solid steering wheel speedway sells one for $80

I'm actually using those fancy aircraft style flip cover switches, however the "cover down" position is the "On" position for my ignition and fuel pump. I'm doing it this way such that I can't accidently turn the car off or fuel pump off. This seems to be a better way of doing it. (other method is to use a bar that goes over the switches.

What do you mean by solid steering wheel? I'm personally just going to be using the stock one, but I'm not sure what you mean by this.

As far as fire systems, yeah they are nice but I have a halon system in my limited with three nozzles I really hate the setup because
1. halon puts out fire great but, it can kill you at the same time. You have about 5 seconds to get out of the car and at least ten feet away, unless you don't want to breathe right for the next 3-4 days (been there done that).
2. I have had 2 fires in my car and have never set the system off because there was no use (three nozzles pointed at driver, when fire is in engine compartment or in trunk)
3. if you think the system is the way your going to go fine, but put one nozzle in the engine compartment close to the oil and fuel line (most fires are from here or from the bottom end blowing) then one in the trunk, and one in the drivers compartment either down by the feet or on the passenger side pointed towards the waist area. SO if you do set it off you get the two main fire areas contained and if the fire migrates you got the nozzle in the drivers compartment that is far enough away that it will give you a couple more seconds to get a clean breathe yet. Then keep a 5 lb portable mounted with a quick release next to your seat in between the door and the seat. So if there is a tiny fire (brakes or tiny oil dribble on the header) you can do a quick small blast without wasting the system. Or if someone else has a fire on the car even in the pits it works great. (everycar has one and you don't know where everyone keeps an extinguisher in thier trailer) (if htey have one even)

There are a couple different things you can do with the fire systems, but between AFFF, Halon 1301, Halon 1211..
well, I was going to type this up, but I found a much better version, by someone who knows alot more than me:

Read http://www.ioportracing.com/faq/fire.htm before purchasing a fire suppression system. AFFF is a very good system, however it DOES leave a big mess, and smell. It is actually what is used in most military buildlings that have fire supression systems I believe.

 

[Elvenhome21]

with the flip covers that works fine but you can run into a problem of someone not knowing that and they flip the switchs thinking that you left them on. as with fire system stick with halon or BC extinguisher only DO NOT USE ABC, the "A" has a heat binding agent that love to screw up carburetors (TB) and anything hot. BC are either co2, water, or dry chem. Speedway sells the "system" with halon 1211, if you use this stuff don't put a nozzle in the drivers compartment, health issue. I would rather be burned then die from asphixiation.

Steering Wheel http://www.speedwaymotors.com/xq/aspx/paging.yes/dept_id.181/display_id.2057/qx/Product.htm

I have been in racing for over 8 years and done a lot.
Karts for 3 years USA International (Shawano former Water & Wheels)
1 championship, Forth place the year before out of 25. 12 feature wins, 8 heat race wins.
Then Mini Stock equivalent to Super Stock but with a 4 cyl. 2 heat race wins on stock motor with spec cam. Hard Luck award (10 motors in 15 nights)
Then Mid American which is like a Limited Late Model or Grand National. Thats where I have been until this winter when I am building a car very close to Archer but I am not following any particular rule book or class.
http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2091157030090774303bPAGLO

 

[eclipse2via]

West Coast (especially NorCal) folks with serious cars maybe interested in this:

http://www.awdchallenge.com/