New Head...won't start

[RoasT BeeF]

I just got done doing a head swap on my car. Brand new rebuilt head from the machine shop. I got everything back together today and thought I was good to go. This is the 4th time I have done a head swap/timing job on this car and this is the first time it hasnt started. Anyway here is what happend.

Tried to start the car but all it did was crank and not fire. I checked spark and fuel and I am getting both. I flipped the CAS 180 with no results. After I messed with it for about an hour I got pissed and went inside for awhile. Came back out and tried to start it. It fired the first time but didnt run. Second time it fired again but didnt run. This happend like 4-5 times before I decided to press the gas to the floor when I started it. It fired and ran for probably 1.5 seconds and died. Now it just cranks and wont do anything again. I pulled the spark plugs and they are drenched with gas so I am gonna let it sit overnight and dry out and then try it again in the morning.

What am I missing here?

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF


Tried to start the car but all it did was crank and not fire. I checked spark and fuel and I am getting both. I flipped the CAS 180 with no results. After I messed with it for about an hour
...

It fired the first time but didnt run. Second time it fired again but didnt run. This happend like 4-5 times before I decided to press the gas to the floor when I started it. It fired and ran for probably 1.5 seconds and died. Now it just cranks and wont do anything again. I pulled the spark plugs and they are drenched with gas so I am gonna let it sit overnight and dry out and then try it again in the morning.
What am I missing here?

Not sure what you are missing.

You can speed up the process by having clean dry plugs... hold them over a flame for a few seconds this should dry the gas and any moisture.

Crank the engine over for 10-30 seconds with fuel pump disconnected or injectors unplugged and the plugs out. Plug everything back in and start car, don't have the key on except when you are ready to start. If it need the wide open throttle then give it if that's what it needs to start.

Do make sure plug wires are correct as well as injectors. Make sure all the electrics are plugged in which control fuel, temp and O2.

Let us know what if anything you find. Have a datalogger...

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Thanks GTM.

I did check all sensors I could think of that I had unpluged also and didnt find any loose or disconnected. I would dry the plugs off and try it right now except for the fact that if I look down through the spark plug holes I can see fuel sitting on the pistons...so thats what I'm waiting on to dry. I jsut dont understand why it would be dumping that much fuel in the cylinders and an uncontrollable rate like that. Plug wires were the first thing I checked. They are all in the correct order. I have a datalogger but I am not exactly sure on what I should be looking for? I havent really figured out how to use it yet. hehe

One other thing I forgot to mention...dont really know if it means anything but before I put the head on I noticed that the exhaust cam was really hard to turn. I just figured it was because of the new cap bearings....

I know the timing didnt jump though because I checked that also.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
Thanks GTM.
...
I would dry the plugs off and try it right now except for the fact that if I look down through the spark plug holes I can see fuel sitting on the pistons...so thats what I'm waiting on to dry. I jsut dont understand why it would be dumping that much fuel in the cylinders and an uncontrollable rate like that.
...
I have a datalogger but I am not exactly sure on what I should be looking for? I havent really figured out how to use it yet. hehe

One other thing I forgot to mention...dont really know if it means anything but before I put the head on I noticed that the exhaust cam was really hard to turn. I just figured it was because of the new cap bearings....

I know the timing didnt jump though because I checked that also.

Wow, don't like the sound of what you reported with the exhaust cam. Maybe you should call the machine shop and tell them what you found and the trouble you are having.

Put 1/2- 1 teaspoon oil in each cylinder in with the gas.

Use a "turkey baster" squeege bulb with a hose to suck the gas out. Ground the spark plug wires or unplug the coils. Put some rags over the plug holes and weight them with large wrenches. Crank the engine over as mentioned before with the injectors or fuel pump disconnected. If you should get a fire you can just yank the rags off onto the ground and not even have any smoke stains. Not doing this can shoot the gas up to the underside of the hood and maybe catch fire. Get the soaked rags away from your work area.

It sounds like something was causing the injectors to either pulse or stay wide open. Don't be surprised if you get a loud backfire if it's dumped a lot of fuel in the exhaust.

If it's not a pain check the cam timing again just to make sure it didn't slip.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RoasT BeeF]

How come I should add oil to the fuel in the cylinders?

I don't have a turkey baster so I will just see what it looks like tomorrow and if there is still a lot of fuel in there I will get one from somewhere and suck it out. I will check on the timing again tomorrow as well.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
How come I should add oil to the fuel in the cylinders?

I don't have a turkey baster so I will just see what it looks like tomorrow and if there is still a lot of fuel in there I will get one from somewhere and suck it out. I will check on the timing again tomorrow as well.

The gasoline will wash every bit of oil off the pistons and rings. May as well be fitting rings and pistons completely dry and then trying to stat it up. Great way to trash an engine.

With enough fuel hose you could try to suck it out just get a good spitoon(sp)... otherwise bring the piston up to TDC and use parts of paper towels rolled up to wick it out, may take several attempts to get the puddles out. Then use the catch rags on top. The oil will burn off in no time, it will give you added compression, you may have to drain the oil if you see it's a quart overfilled because all the gas leaked into the crankcase.

OKAY?????

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RoasT BeeF]

makes sense, never thought of that. So is it a bad idea to let it sit overnight and have the gas sit on those pistons and rings? Should I go out and try to get it out now with some paper towels before it does damage? Or do you think it will dry up before it can do any harm?

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
makes sense, never thought of that. So is it a bad idea to let it sit overnight and have the gas sit on those pistons and rings? Should I go out and try to get it out now with some paper towels before it does damage? Or do you think it will dry up before it can do any harm?

Yes, I'd get it out of there but first use a drinking straw to get some oil down there and stir it up, then pull the engine through by hand a few revolutions when you have done them all. It get a lot more oil than that when you do a leak down test. Don't drop the straw, don't let the gasoline disolve it.

It's winter and that gas isn't going to evaporate so use the paper towels, cotton rope etc. ... just nothing metal down the holes.

I've seen engines get so flooded from injectors being held open that it's poring out the exhaust pipe. Don't work in a closed garage.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RallyGSX]

get that gas out of there!!!

I'm not a 4g63 expert, but I've built some motors and I can tell you gas can wash out your piston ring seal!!!

I've seen overly rich motors trash that critical piston ring seal during break-in, if that happens, you will get excessive blowby and low compression, you will have to hone the cylinders and re-ring the pistons and start over.. GTM's advise to add oil may be key (never heard that, but I'll remember it). Definately check spark and timing to make sure it'll fire next time...

Good Luck,

Dave,
Dave's Welding and Automotive

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RallyGSX
get that gas out of there!!!
...
GTM's advise to add oil may be key (never heard that, but I'll remember it).
Good Luck,
Dave's Welding and Automotive

I figure a 2 cycle gets it's lube in the 4%-15% mix this can't be any worse. When you do a leak down you put a lot more oil in there that gets burned off. It's not going to coke up the rings for the engine is rich and will wash the excess off before the piston even gets hot. Been doing it for close to 50 years.

I've also put Comet down the spark plug holes to knock the glaze off on old engines before detergent oil existed.
...............

Now about brazing cast iron exhaust manifolds...

Cheers,
GTM

 

[BUCK]

Watch your oil dipstick too - You can flood the crankcase with gas turning it over & over & not firing - Mine was doing that when I bought it - bad ECU.

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Ok thanks for the replies.

Went outside this morning to try it again and right when I walk in the garage I notice the whole place smells like gas. So I open the door and let it air out for like 30 minutes before doing any work. Look down the holes and still see that it is really wet in there. So i get some paper towels and roll them up and stick them down the holes. Weight them with large wrenches and disconnect coil and injectors. Crank it over for like 20 seconds. Go back to pull the paper towels out and what do ya know?...one of them fell down into the combustion chamber! So I spent another hour trying to get it out. I finally did using an old hanger with a small hook on the end. So I go ahead and put the plugs back in and hook up the wires with the injectors still unplugged. Cranked on it for about 15-20 seconds and it didnt even fire. I decide to plug them back in and try it. Cranked on it for a good while with nothing. Pull a plug out and am shocked to see its dry! So I put the plug back in and try it again. Nothing.

Then I decide to check the oil level. I pull the dipstick out and its below the mark. So I add like half a quart. Check the stick again and its between the marks. Go inside to get some breakfast and return about an hour later. Check the dipstick again and its below the mark! Look on the ground and check all around for leaks...nothing. Where the hell is all my oil going? And why wont this things start!!?

My car hates me.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
Ok thanks for the replies.
...
Go back to pull the paper towels out and what do ya know?...one of them fell down into the combustion chamber! So I spent another hour trying to get it out. I finally did using an old hanger with a small hook on the end.
...
Where the hell is all my oil going? And why wont this things start!!?
My car hates me.

Look for oil in water!!!

"Buy you books, send you to school, and all you do is eat the covers"

Eeek!! The paper towels were just for a wick, and nothing more. Not to be left in the holes!!!!!! The shop rags weighted with wrenches were to collect any gasoline spray out the plug holes. It won't suck rags in the cylinders.

I agree, your car hates you!!! Go kick the tires, take a deep breath mutter some bad words and gather your wits about you. "Ain't no g.d d.mn car gonna get the best of me, no sir".

Use your diagnostic skills and do the basics... Fuel, Spark, Valve timing, Compression ck. My first reaction is ECU or CAS has taken a dump assuming those primary items have checked ok. See if you can get any info with your data logger or use the multi meter tests if your head is not going to cooperate under the strain.

I've got to run some errands but will be around this weekend.

How was the car running before you replaced the head? I remember you met with Sk8~ a week or so before.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Yeah I hooked up my datalogger and it seems to be getting all readings that look ok except for all my fuel readings are at %100. Dont know if that is right or not. Checked timing and everything still lines up. Car was running fine before I did the head swap and when I met with Kevin. Only reason I decided to replace it with a new rebuilt one is because it had bad valve seals and would blow smoke at start up and was also blowing smoke out the #4 exhaust port into the exhaust mani.

How should i go about checking the cas? Volt meter or datalogger? What should the correct reading be? Something like 0.92v right?

thanks

 

[Sk8er07999]

Yep, his car was running fine when I met with him. Besides the smoke he still beat some ws-6 trans am! . The only other thing besides the smoke was my girlfriend said she saw a flame come out of the exhaust but I wasn't paying attention to that while they where racing. I have never seen a 4G63 run as smooth has Brent's. Especially compared to my crappy idle. Brent I hope you get it fixed before Sunday! Just kidding, but good luck man. You need it if you have a dsm...

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Haha yea thanks Kevin. I dont know if i will get it running tomorrow or not. I am pretty much out of things to check besides the compression. I am about to tear it all back down and put my other head back on there just to see what happens. If the machine shop screwed up the head you can bet they will be fixing it...and I wont be happy when I walk in there. I tell ya...there is nothing like driving the car into the garage, doing 20 hours of work and not being able to drive it back out.

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Ok I found something today that may or may not be contributing to my problem. Just need some opionions.

I went out to work on the car this morning and decided to try and start it just for the hell of it. I cranked it for a few seconds with nothing so went around to the engine bay and noticed that there was fuel leaking out of the passenger end of the rail where the hose bolts up. Now, I did unbolt that end and pull it off when I was re-installing the throttle body because for some reason one of the coolant hose elbow's was hitting the fuel line. So I did unbolt that end to get the TB back on. I am guessing the little O-ring needs replaced which is why its leaking right? Could this be why my car is not starting? I would like to think so but at the same time remember that fuel is still getting into the cylinders... Maybe for some odd reason because there is a leak the fuel system cannot maintain pressure so the ECU is dumping TO MUCH fuel into the cylinders thus flooding the car. I pulled the plugs again today and they are as drenched with fuel as ever.

THX

 

[Sk8er07999]

Sounds interesting def. a possibility I would say.

 

[BUCK]

I pulled the plugs again today and they are as drenched with fuel as ever.

I can tell you how NOT to get the fuel out of the cylinders... I turned a Craftsman Shop Vac into a flame thrower! More flames came out of the motor! It limped on a few more months - had to jury rig a new filter - original foam one was cooked, along with half the motor housing - it finally died last week - Maybe santa will bring me a new one to destroy...

Fire Extinguishers are good things to have in a garage... especially on a fuel related job.

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Yeah I will probably just pick up an O-ring tomorrow. Who knows how much fuel leaked down onto the manifold and such. Soon as I saw that I whipped out my fire extinguisher and got it ready! Hehe.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
Ok I found something today
...
O-ring needs replaced which is why its leaking right? Could this be why my car is not starting? I would like to think so but at the same time remember that fuel is still getting into the cylinders...
...
the fuel system cannot maintain pressure so the ECU is dumping TO MUCH fuel into the cylinders thus flooding the car. I pulled the plugs again today and they are as drenched with fuel as ever.

At the moment I cannot present a good rational for why this is happening but it's the only part of the equation which you have not tried. It would seem that a loss of fuel pressure would result in less being injected but you could be right that the ECU is over compensating in a desperate attempt to inject enough fuel.
..........................

The basters are by far the best way I've found to handle a variety of automotive liquids. Certainly any vacuum cleaner would not be a choice for falamable materials. Buck do know how close you came to having a major reduction in your family gene pool... As an aside my mother's cleaning lady accidently knocked the gas valve on to her fireplace logs while vacuuming. The result was an explosion which did over $10,000 to the living room in material losses plus plaster damage.

If you have compressed air you can get a pretty good venturi by dipping a small hose in the gasoline and blowing across the end of the hose which will suck the gas right out. Of course you want plenty of ventelation so you don't just move it from a safe place to a hazzardous environment. A lot of homes have gas hot water heaters in the garage which is attached to the house so again common sense must be used.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[BUCK]

A lot of homes have gas hot water heaters in the garage which is attached to the house so again common sense must be used.

Quite off topic kinda but yeah - The next door neighbors burned a 6 car garage down & heavily damaged their house a few years ago parking a pickup truck with a gas cans in it next to the gas hot water heater in the garage - destroyed a vintage Ford Model A & a classic old Chrysler - no people were hurt only by the Grace of God... Gas is dangerous.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by BUCK

A lot of homes have gas hot water heaters in the garage which is attached to the house so again common sense must be used.

Quite off topic kinda but yeah - The next door neighbors burned a 6 car garage down
...
Gas is dangerous.

I am as guilty as they come for getting off topic. Yet, sometimes the opportunity arises to make some point which addresses safety issues which may escape common sense or a lack of knowledge. Any type of brushed motors make sparks as the brushes move from commutator segments and this includes cordless drills and any type of vacuum cleaner. Again side stepping, ... my preference for heat during the winter months is from light sources or heat lamps unless you are a klutz and insist on breaking them.

I guess we should not feel too guilty when we get an opportuinity to share / teach those less experienced when it comes to dangerous safety situations. We are waiting for the "O" ring purchase / installation in hopes that will solve his problem. Hope he doesn't mind.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RoasT BeeF]

YES!! I finally got it started today!!! Its about damn time. And wouldnt ya know it was something simple? Here's what happend...

Around 1:00 A.M. I decided to do a search for ppl who couldnt start their car and start trying everything that I found. I probably read through 10 pages of all different things people were sayin. I ran across a thread where somebody said that they forgot to plug their coolant temp sensor back in and the car wouldnt start. It hit me right then. I rememberd when I was plugging all that stuff back in after I got the new head on that one of the sensors that plugs into the coolant housing was a little rusy and old looking. Didnt really think nothing of it and plugged it in anyway. Well I decided I was going to check that next time I went out to work on the car.

So I went out to the garage this morning and first replaced the O-ring with the new one. Then I unplugged all the wires on the coolant housing and the O2 sensor and pulled them up and out so I could have a look. Turns out that one of the wires pulled out of the plug for the coolant temp sensor! So I spent about an hour fixing it all up nice and neat and plugged it back in. Went to start the car and it fired!! Huge cloud of smoke came out the exhaust...I mean HUGE! From the oil in the cylinders. It took about 20 min to get it started to where it would idle...it really didnt want to run at first. I had to pull the plugs and dry them off 3 or 4 times. When it finally started to idle on its own I noticed that I was getting almost no vac. and the car would barely stay alive. I rechecked all vac hoses that I could think off and didnt find any loose or disconnected. I messed with the BISS but still cant get it to idle right. I will look more into it tomorrow. For now I am just glad its running!!! I drove it up and down the road a few times and it runs really smooth so I am happy with that.

Thanks everybody for all your help and support! I really appreciate it!

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
YES!! I finally got it started today!!!
...
I ran across a thread where somebody said that they forgot to plug their coolant temp sensor back in and the car wouldnt start. It hit me right then.

Argh!! It's the little things that jump up and bite you in the back side. Figure out how to use that datalogger AND your multi-meter. Either one of those would have found the problem showing it was -150 (ficticious number) degrees at the thermostat.

If you have a used set of plugs you might try them in case these got ruined from all the gas. You are going to have nightmares over this for weeks to come.

Cheers,
GTM