NON-RACER Needs help with diagnosing smokey situation

[smcjr]

Please excuse the length of this but I need a little help finding a problem with my 91 Talon TSi AWD. I have included some history and habits to try and aide with troubleshooting and some advice...

It starts with my car having 176K miles but exceptionally well kept by the previous owner (All records of oil changes, timing belt replacements, KYB shock replacement, etc., etc.) and all miles being highway miles.

I am now the second owner of this car (I am also a commuter (105 mi. a day), and noticed after about 6000 miles that I was having to put oil in quite regularly (about a quart every 3rd tank full of gas). After an inspection, I noticed that I was leaking oil from the valve cover gasket in a couple of places and from both of the camshaft seals. *NOTE* During this entire time I noticed the smell of burning oil, BUT HAVE NEVER seen any visible smoke from under the hood or from the tailpipe.

Concerned for the health of my timing belt, I figured that it wouldn't hurt to replace it now instead of waiting for 180K. In addition to that, I was looking for the source of some loud "ticking" after starting the car in the morning but went away after a few miles. *NOTE* I feel it necessary to point out that I am not educated with cars in general as I am in the technology field (This is my only excuse for being a slave to marketing and the isles of additives at the parts store (more on this below)).

SO...

3 days ago (Tuesday) I bought a GoodYear "GatorBack" Timing Belt Kit, a new water pump, NGK plugs, valvecover gasket, cap and rotor, K&N air filter, the water pump belt, the A/C belt, the power steering belt, and a product claiming to be a valve cleaner (The instructions on this were to get the engine up to operating temperature, add the contents of the little yellow bottle, and immediately drive the car (I followed the directions)).

Yesterday (Thursday), A friend and I (friend being an ASE certified mechanic) performed the following:

Oil change- Switched from 10w30(non synthetic) to Mobil1 0w40(full synthetic).

Air Filter- Replaced the paper filter with a new K&N filter. *NOTE* When removing the screws, I noticed that the BCS WAS NOT plugged in. I found the plug tucked beneath other wire bundles and plugged it in.

Spark Plugs- replaced the OEM NGK (BPR6ES) with the V-Power NGK (BPR6EY) plugs. *NOTE* The originals were the picture perfect example of what a plug should look like when replaced. -- *ALSO NOTE* Plug wires were not replaced due to the limited availability of 8MM wires in the color BLUE (on order).

Camshaft Seals- Replaced. *NOTE* This was the more serious of any of the leaks I found.

Timing Belt- Installed the Timing Belt Kit (Timing and Balancer Belts, and all three tensioner pulleys). *NOTE* After removing the lower timing cover, we noticed excessive deflection between the crank and oil pump sprockets. After the change, tension was to Mfr. spec, and all 4 timing marks were perfect after 6 full rotations of the crank (by hand).

Water Pump- Replaced (With new belt). *NOTE* The pump was installed by someone in love with RTV (blue) sealant, it was everywhere (The previous owner was a Firefighter, and had all his work done by many more han one service shop). We thoroughly cleaned the mounting surface of the block with B-12 Chemtool and what looked like a round steel wire brush attached to an electric drill (sorry, I don't know the name of the attachment), then installed the new pump without any extra sealant.

A/C Belt- Replaced.

P/S Belt- Replaced.

Valve cover- We found that again someone had previously gone crazy with the RTV sealant. Furthermore, it looked as though the reason behind the RTV blue parade, was that at some point prior, someone else had a field day with a different (white) sealant, and their solution was to SUPER seal with their Blue sealant instead of clean out the old sealant. *NOTE* Without the details, we again thoroughly cleaned both surfaces, replaced ALL of the gaskets using just a "dab" of sealant (Mercedes Mfr.), and only where there was a 90 degree angle in the gasket.

The Results (THURSDAY)-
When done, we noticed NO difficulty cranking the motor by hand (6 FULL REVOLUTIONS). We then reconnected the lower cover and all of the new belts. Keeping both the valve cover off and the upper timing belt cover, we reconnected the plug wires and started the car. Started with no problems and ran great until we shut it down after 3minutes.

Finally, we put on the cleaned valvecover and the upper timing cover. IT RAN AMAZING (At about 1200 RPM) for an eternity ( 3 whole minutes).

We adjusted the idle using the BISS procedure in the DSM FAQ's to get the idle within Mfr spec. -- I was starting to drool.....

I was so pleased. I drove it to work and back (about 105 mi.). AWESOME! It was the first time I felt sooo much power from the car, and it idled GREAT! The term "purred like a kitten" came to mind.

Today (Friday)-

I had to drive to work. Best way to test things is to drive it for a while...

Back at the garage, I was backing in and I noticed a little cloud of smoke as I was letting off of the throttle getting it into reverse. I barely mentioned it.

After the initial "hmmm's", we started to diagnose the problem. We cheked all of the vacuum lines, the EGR valve, the PCV valve, and looked for external leakes that we may have missed earlier.

We took it to get a smog check. All of the visual checks passed, all of the mechanical passed ( EGR, O2, Vacuum, etc., etc.), and the emissions test failed. There was a lot of smoke coming from the engine compartment and from the tailpipe. Grey smoke with moments of blue smoke.

By the time we got back to the garage again, the smoking had stopped. But after it sat for while idleing, it started to smoke again. I started to panic.

We did a compression check (left to right)-
In psi- 160 150 150 110

Now I knew that there was definitely a problem with cylinder #1. But I don't know if it is the rings or the valves.

Concerned that the 0w oil was too thin for the mileage of my car we drained the oil and put 10w40 in. That brought the compression in #1 up to 120 but there was still a lot of smoke form the tail.

In the engine compartment, we cannot find any visible leaks. but there is still a lot of smoke at idle.

So, any thoughts out there? What could I have done wrong? Why would I have all of the smoke when the engine now runs so well? What should I do next? Am I looking at a head replacement?

Any thoughts, help, or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[DSMRevolution]

I will try to help. First, check your compression numbers. You said that it went up to 120psi, which leads me to believe that your first row of numbers is incorrect.

The higher compression reading may be the cause of bad rings. Try a compression test again and do a "wet" test. Put a bit of oil in each cylinder and try it one-by-one. If you have bad rings, your compression WILL raise.

A engine with that many miles that smokes is a sure sign of turbo failure or valve seal failure. The turbo is a lot easier to work on unless you have the Mitsubishi tool for removing valve springs with the head on the car. As far as my research goes, I have not found any way to test for leaks throughout the turbo without visual inspection. That inspection will call for pulling the turbo apart (well, unbolting) and checking o-rings. If you are going to do this, purchase a turbo rebuild kit (about $100) and go from there. You will have to send the turbo in to be balanced after taking it apart (if you don't, the turbo will have premature failure). Balancing fee is usually ($10 - $30).

Also do some research on MCCC. It stands for Mopar Combustion Chamber Cleaner. It works wonders. I believe it sells for about $8 a can. Check with a Dodge dealer for this product. For a how-to, visit VFAQ .

A head replacement is not necessary. The reason you are (more then likely) seeing more smoke now is because your engine is timed right (hence the good idle). Either your intake or exhaust valves were opening too early or late before. That is my guess at least.

Hope that helps with most your questions

 

[smcjr]

I never would have thought to check the turbo. It is still the original. Tell me more about the Mitu tool for the valve springs, what will this get me? Would I be able to fix a valve seal if I acquire this tool?

Thanks for the reply!

 

[DSMRevolution]

Originally posted by smcjr
I never would have thought to check the turbo. It is still the original. Tell me more about the Mitu tool for the valve springs, what will this get me? Would I be able to fix a valve seal if I acquire this tool?

Thanks for the reply!

I have no idea on the part number for that tool. Check the VFAQ as they might have more information then I know. If you get this tool, you can remove the valve springs and pull out the seal under the spring to replace it. It is very simple task with the correct tools and some time. Valve seals maybe cost $20 for a complete set. They are cheap.

 

[turboholic]

Originally posted by smcjr
Please excuse the length of this but I need a little help finding a problem with my 91 Talon TSi AWD. I have included some history and habits to try and aide with troubleshooting and some advice...

-That's long. You must to be an engineer.

-Do a leak down test to confirm if in fact your #1 rings are bad, your ASE friend should know how to replace the valve seals without removing the head, you'll need to modify the spring compression tool a little for there's little room in the middle section of the head. this tool can be found in most auto part stores.

 

[smcjr]

I haven't had a chance to do the wet test yet but after driving all over the place today, I made some observations. I saw absolutely no smoke from either under the hood or from the tail. It didn't make a difference if I was making a short run for fast food (sitting in the drive-thru for what seemed like an eternity), or hitting the throttle pretty hard getting on to the freeway. The car runs great, ahs more power than it ever has, idles great, and the gas mileage improvement was not a fluke.

This is odd, I thought. Maybe I just needed to burn off some oil sitting in one of the hoses. So I went home, raised the car and let it idle for a while while looking for any signs of leaks underneath. after about 5 minutes of just idleing, I started to see a little smoke from the tail. I revved it up in a couple of quick short bursts. SMOKE! greyish heavy smoke with little hints of blue now and again.

So then I just held the throttle at 3K RPM and waited to see if the smoke would abate and how long it would take. After only maybe 60 seconds the smoke was gone. I immediately dropped the car and went for a spin around the block. I was really agressive with it. No smoke, none.

I'm going to do the wet test tomorrow. I can't wait to see the results.

 

[turboholic]

Originally posted by smcjr
after about 5 minutes of just idleing, I started to see a little smoke from the tail. I revved it up in a couple of quick short bursts. SMOKE! greyish heavy smoke with little hints of blue now and again.So then I just held the throttle at 3K RPM and waited to see if the smoke would abate and how long it would take. After only maybe 60 seconds the smoke was gone.

-Most likely valve seals.

 

[wannabeDSMer]

Hey at least you only have one problem. On my galant I am having to replace the turbo and probably pistons and piston rings and why im at it i will probably replace the valve seals. All of this just because of some smoke

 

[jott5555]

Dont waste your time doing a wet test IT IS your valve seals, i just did mine, its easy if u have the correct tool. but yea take and romp on the boost as much as u want go home park let the car idle for 5 minuets or so and wham smoke everywhere, thats the valve seals