1G Help! No Spark!

[ExtremeDSM91]

Here's the run down: 91 Eclipse GSX. Bought the car as a rolling chasiss in 03, has ran 2 times with issues.

Rebuilt from ground up, rebuilt motor/head, lots of new parts. the car ran fine about 6 months ago, the timing belt jump a tooth and broke valves and damaged piston, I rebuilt the head again and installed a new piston, reinstalled it using only OEM timing stuff all new parts. timed correctly by my mechanic DSM friend, everything worked before.

I have checked and rechecked every connection, I am getting fuel but no spark. Power transistor is good, bought a new one anyways no change. The coil pack is a little out of tolerance, but not a lot, I have two and the original one DID work. I have two different CAS and they were both tried w/ the motor at TDC and the CAS timed, all coolant sensors were changed to new ones (just in case) after the rebuild. The ECU should be good, the CEL light comes on for 5 seconds and goes out and the boost gauge goes to 0.

It cranks and sounds like it wants to, maybe a few kind of popping noises (2-3) I am not sure that is spark or not. It smells of fuel, and the spark plugs are black but when I try to spark check them to a screw driver I get nothing. I have not done a compression check (I don't have one) nor have a logger so I don't know if the coolant temp sensors are working or sending the right data to the ECU.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, I have been struggling with this problem for months, if it was easy I would have found it. I don't want to spend huge $$$$ just swapping parts in the hopes it might work, anyone know any other checks I can do? I have read all the posts similar to this and still no help. thanks.

 

[urcnjoe]

Sounds like a bad CAS. You said you tried to different sensors, but I would check your Haynes, or Chilton's manual and test them with an OHM meter. No use in just guessing that the parts are good. After all the replacement parts are used. Check your coil pack and power transistor as well. It is a very fast and simple test that will ensure your used parts are working. You might want to pull the ECU and look at your caps but it doesn't sound like an ECU problem.

 

[ExtremeDSM91]

I dont know how to check the cas the manuals dont have a check for it, I did check the harness side and it was good. I have read something about spinning the cas and getting pulses if its working, but I dont know how.
The power transistor is good brand new oem, the coil packs I ohms tested and they are only a little out of tolerance on one secondary coil.

BTW: a new cas oem is about 500+$$ and a coil pack is another 150$$

 

[this_tsi_8urV8]

Ok, that happened to me when I rebuilt my engine. I later found out, that the CAS was connected to the wrong plug/harness. THere are 2 similar connectors for the CAS. I suggest trying the other connecter and then crank and see what happens. OH yeah, check to see that the CAS does NOT have any breaks on the wiring especially the part that "touches" the CAS, b/c they usually break from there. G.L.!

 

[ExtremeDSM91]

I havent seen another connector. there is only one i see that fits and it sits right there by the cas. i already checked the harness side of the cas.

 

[RICHDADDY]

check your crank positioning sensor if you look at your haynes manual youl read that this actually controls timing and ignition, good luck

 

[Auto RS T]

check your crank positioning sensor if you look at your haynes manual youl read that this actually controls timing and ignition, good luck

A 91 GSX does not have a crank sensor, CAS only.

Here is a thread on checking the CAS

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226785&highlight=testing+CAS

 

[ExtremeDSM91]

CAS is good, any other ideas. this car has not had spark for almost 8 months, what the f!!

Let me make sure I did this right, because that CAS test post makes no sense.

I should pull off the CAS and make a power and ground wire from the battery to pins 3 & 4. Then put my leads on either pins 1 or 2 and the other to ground and see if I get 5v on both 1 & 2 while spinning the CAS.

If they meant to check it on the car, how do I spin it? and if the ECU "provides the 5v" then how can I check for that with the plug connected and trying to crank the car?

 

[grnchevyz]

I dont know how to check the cas the manuals dont have a check for it, I did check the harness side and it was good. I have read something about spinning the cas and getting pulses if its working, but I dont know how.
The power transistor is good brand new oem, the coil packs I ohms tested and they are only a little out of tolerance on one secondary coil.

BTW: a new cas oem is about 500+$$ and a coil pack is another 150$$

Not sure where you're getting your prices but I can get a brand new OEM CAS for about $100cdn that would be around $90us and the coil packs for $70us at autozone.

Anyhow, if the CAS has been checked out and is ok per the tests, I'd take a close look at your ECU for bad caps.

Also, if you can get a hold of a logger to check out the temp sensors taht would help you out a lot if they are out of whack. Let me know if I can help further.

 

[Auto RS T]

Let me make sure I did this right, because that CAS test post makes no sense.

I should pull off the CAS and make a power and ground wire from the battery to pins 3 & 4. Then put my leads on either pins 1 or 2 and the other to ground and see if I get 5v on both 1 & 2 while spinning the CAS.

If they meant to check it on the car, how do I spin it? and if the ECU "provides the 5v" then how can I check for that with the plug connected and trying to crank the car?

Unbolt the CAS from the head, backprobe the connector with the cam sensor plugged in while spinning with your hand.

When reinstalling, line up the notch on the spinning part to the notch in the cam.

 

[ExtremeDSM91]

I just used a power and ground off the battery with some test leads I had made to pins 3 & 4, I got 5v on pin 1 ever 180 degrees, but nothing on pin 2 (was the same on both cas' i have) the harness side had 12v and ground and 5v on both 1 & 2 pins.

All injectors plugs have 12v.

both my coil packs i checked again and i have 1.5 ohms one both primarys and 14.3k ohms on the secondary. the book says the limit is 0-.95 primary and 10k-13.9k on secondary. would an overage like that (about .10 on the primary and about 400 ohms over on the secondary) make no spark at all?

btw: autozone and checker sell the coil for about $117, OEM mitsu is about $191. and the cas is anywhere from $279(crap) to OEM Mitsu $530. if you have found them for that cheap, let me know where.

Coil:

http://www.parts.com/partlocator/in...3&make=24&model=Eclipse&year=1991&catalogid=1

a little more than i thought, i got the power transistor price and the coil mixed up

http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB...Store|~REGULAR+PARTS+LOOK+UP|~Coil+-+Ignition

CAS(found on line a little cheaper):

http://www.parts.com/shoppingcart/index.cfm?action=viewCart&siteid=214144

http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB...+LOOK+UP|~Connector+-+Crankshft+Position+Sens

 

[grnchevyz]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the 1G NOT have a Crankshaft Position Sensor...only a Camshaft Position Sensor???

The autozone listing is for a crankshaft position sensor not a CAS. (Cam Angle Sensor) I will call tomorrow morning (Monday) and confirm the pricing...now I'm second guessing my self if I had not priced a 2G Crank sensor...hmmm...I'll let you know in the morning.

 

[Auto RS T]

You are right, the 1g only has a Cam Angle Sensor. It sends out two different pulse signals, in turn creating the "crank" sensor signal also.

 

[ExtremeDSM91]

Was I looking up the wrong part? I thought that different places call things on a mitsu different names, for instance, power transistor is called an ignition module on autozone.

so, what about my coil being a little out of tolerance, would that be the problem? I might just buy a new one and see if it fixes it. any advice?

 

[ExtremeDSM91]

the factory service manual calls it a "crank angle sensor" does that mean both of you are wrong?

frankly, telling me the exact name for it is trivial. as long as I have the right part (if I even need to buy one, which I DONT) when try to find one.

both those website links gave me that part for a "91 eclipse" I doubt they are going to show me a 2g part, they probably just call it different names.

 

[Auto RS T]

the factory service manual calls it a "crank angle sensor" does that mean both of you are wrong?

frankly, telling me the exact name for it is trivial. as long as I have the right part (if I even need to buy one, which I DONT) when try to find one.

both those website links gave me that part for a "91 eclipse" I doubt they are going to show me a 2g part, they probably just call it different names.

Yes, the FSM calls the Cam Sensor a crank sensor, I call it a cam sensor because that is where it is located, to avoid confusion.

You never know about parts from a distributor like Autozone, they could give you anything really. It depends on the counterman really, if they dont know what they are doing, you will be able to tell. I always want to see the item if possible before ordering.

 

[this_tsi_8urV8]

I would get an orginal Mitsu item. If not attainable, b/c of price nor used/junkyard, then I GUESS I would get it from a parts place, otherwise, stick to Mitsu parts, especially on electronics.

 

[ExtremeDSM91]

I know its been a while but i still have no spark. this is what i have done, new igniter(transistor pack), two used(but working)coils, tested good cas and cas harness(timed to TDC), injectors are firing, new wires, NGK plugs, new rebuilt ecu. What else am I missing???

It cranks and gives ZERO spark???? I have had no spark for about a year now. anyone have any other ideas??

A relay or fuse or anything related to this spark system that I might have overlooked???

 

[Nautica985]

are you positive you are not getting spark?

Take out the spark plugs, connect them to the spark plug wires and lay the plugs on the intake manifold. Take out the CAS(leave it connected to the wiring harness), turn the ignition key to ON and then keep turning the knob on the CAS and look closley for spark. try to do it in a dark area

 

[Nautica985]

and the spark plugs are black

If the plugs are black then you are at least getting some combustion, which means you are getting spark.

Next step is a compression check, and also make sure the the spark plug wires are in the right firing order

 

[ExtremeDSM91]

I put new plugs in and I have cramnked it and they have no black or signs of spark. They are in the right firing order.

if it was something easy, I would have found it by now, been trying to get it to start for almost a year.

I need some info, more in depth to the starting system, then just the wrong firing order.

 

[this_tsi_8urV8]

You need to trace the point where the system doesn't get spark anymore. We now know you dont get it at the end, which is at the spark. THerefore you are not getting it thru the wires, but is the ignitor/coil are they getting spark? Work you self backwards on they cranking cuircuit. Hopefully that helps.

 

[ExtremeDSM91]

PROBLEM SOLVED, CHECK YOUR MACHINE SHOPS WORK!!!!!

I checked again for spark with the new ECU, and it had spark on all four, but no start. So my buddy tried spraying starter fluid in and it blew back out. We rechecked the timing and found that the machine shop had put the intake cam gear on wrong. The cam gear was flipped 180 degrees so the dowel pin was on the cam wrong and hence opening valves at the wrong time, even though it was timed right. Thanks guys for the help.

 

[ExtremeDSM91]

NEW UPDATE:

Retimed it and threw on a new coil pack, still no start. but i have spark, and fuel. Would a bad alternator cause a no start?

 

[ExtremeDSM91]

any help would be appreciated....

I tried to do the fuel pump check and it made my starter click, but i heard no fuel pump, I have a 255hp in it, and it did run before the timing belt slipped. I also have no resistance on the injector harness for cylinder 4 and they are all over 6ohms on the three others. could it be a fuel prob?

The car is about to go to a shop, and I am going to have to pay out the a$$