Engine #2 lasted 30 minutes

[strippedlug]

I'm beginning to think my car is cursed!
I bought the 95 TSI AWD for next to nothing with snapped valves. I already had a 91 TSI FWD for parts with a complete engine, but I was stubborn and only used the head off the 1G, did the CAS conversion. The valves trashed the pistons, so I had a new set of OE pistons, rods, and bearings from a 2G. I honed the cylinders lightly and reassembled the bottom end. It ran great for about a day then I heard the worst sound in the world...Knock Knock slightly off idle. And not the "knock" that is misunderstood as a lifter tap. No I mean the deep hollow bottom end KNOCK KNOCK that gives you a lump in your throat.
So okay I dropped the oil pan and with no need to look close up or examine with a magnifying glass, saw cyl #2 AND #3 bearings spun all the way around and welded themselves to the connecting rods.
Oh well I should've plastigauged the crank, lesson learned right?

On to engine #2. This bottom end was proven tight and noise free, as I drove the car! I did a full 1G conversion, assembled everything on a stand, bought an AWD clutch and all the small stuff barely worth mentioning. Dropped the engine in last night and started right up. Ran beautiful! Checked oil pressure for good measure, and basically babysat the car while coolant as settling in, etc.
Time for the test drive: Went across the street and filled up on 93. Then proceeded down my "test drive road" at work and made it 1 MILE before the dreaded Knock Knock KNOCK KNOCK. I immediately looked at the oil pressure guage and it read OK. Quickly turned left to turn around and engine stopped before I made the turn. CLICK CLICK! Locked up engine just that quick!

Engine 2 didn't make it passed the first test drive before locking up, and the bottom end was proven!
I'm not asking anyone to tell me what happened, and last night I swore I would not share this info as I just wasn't in the mood to hear 20 people tell me their theories (no offense). But I've calmed down now and I need answers (or those theories I thought I didn't want). I'm a certified tech and I've forgotten more about cars than most people will even know, but I can't help thinking there HAS to be something I DID to cause this demise. 2 engines, 1 proven tight, and same knock and same final death after such a short time. Either I should buy a lottery ticket cause my chances of this happening are unheard of, OR I missed a crucial and incredibly stupid detail that has cost me two engines.

I'm using the 1G turbo setup. Coolant and oil fed. The first thing I thought of was oh god I mixed the coolant and oil feeds together. NOPE. Oil was clean and full as was the coolant. I did notice on the test drive before the KNOCK however that my turbo was building boost but I never felt it at all. I just figured I must've bent the wastegate actuator rod a bit during the engine drop in, keeping the flap open. I don't see any way this could've aided in total destruction of my bottom end however.

I can't think of any other helpful details for you guys, other than yes I did flush the oil and used 10W30 for the break in period.

At this point I'm not sure what I'm going to do, but I guess I'll probably send the bare 6 bolt block to my machine shop for hot tank and xrays to check for inegrity. Then I suppose I'll start shopping for a stroker kit (I may as well have fun blowing an engine, ). Needless to say I'm totally gun shy now and almost scared to invest all those labor hours AGAIN and not reep the benefits of a job a well done. Part of me HOPES I figure out it was something I DID so I can at least say "oh Shane you dumba$$, bet you won't do that again" and continue building this car. Like I said though, I see NO WAY it could be something I did wrong. But feel free to try to prove me wrong! I would feel so much better if I knew what keeps causing this so I can have a bit of confidence in the next build that the damn car will last long enough to maybe take me home (I don't think I'm asking too much). I will be available to reply to this post consistantly so feel free to ask any questions at all.

You can email me as well at [email protected] . I'm not an a$$hole so I won't be offended at every little comment made, just don't laugh at my misfortune please hehe. Only I get to do that!
Thanks ahead of time guys, now lets scratch our heads together.
Also if anyone has any proven bottom end combo suggestions, I am shopping. Please keep in mind that obviously longevity is my goal, performance is going to have to take a back seat to that, only because I want the car to last longer than 1 day. My back is sore from all this R & Ring! i.e. I heard Clevite 77s can withstand alot of abuse.
Happy driving!
Shane

 

[The_EE]

I dont know much about the engine aspect at this time, getting ready to build and drop in a 4g64 myself. Did you prime the oil pump? You dont sound like a novice so I dont know what else to ask.

 

[strippedlug]

Yeah I did prime just by cranking for a few cycles with the coils disconnected. Besides If it was a pump issue, I would IMAGINE I would hear valve tap, or lifter tap, followed by wiped out cams or rockers. Something TOP end you know? That's just theoretical of course, and I did see plenty of oil splashing the cams during initial start-up (something I always like to check anyway). Thanks for the comment though EE, anything to get my gears turning. I've had a one track mind all day thinking about engine 2's demise, but so far have just been too frustrated to dismantle for inspection. Besides I pretty much know WHAT's damaged. It's the HOW that's important to me now! Thanks again

Shane

 

[The_EE]

I know the feeling. I get the same way with my computer when it stops working. I got to step away for a day and just let it be and then the answer to the problem hits me and I have it fixed... unfortunalty for you it wont be like that. I wish you the best of luck man.

 

[strippedlug]

Thanks EE. Yeah either way the fix is engine #3! I'm going to go ahead and tow it in a minute. Lol yeah I walked away from the whole heap in a parking lot. Been there since last night. Guess it's time to take my migraine back to the shop.

 

[toybreaker]

I feel your pain. You seem savvy, so pretty I'm sure there's not much I can add to the build-up process.

I have a little pre-oiling regimen I perform before lighting the motor off the first time. Before the t-belt goes on, but everything else is done, I will spin up the oil pump up with a 14mm socket and a cordless drill on the rear balance shaft.

If you do this with the valve cover off, be sure to cover the oil/air bleeder holes at the cyl. #1 end of the lifter galleys, as they will spray oil everywhere. I usually verify oil delivery at the lifters/rockers by watching the weep holes on the rockers where it sprays the cam lobes. If you leave the crank 90* before tdc#1, you can rotate the cams, one at a time, to prime all the lifters, without running a valve into a piston. Return the cams to tdc #1, bring the crank up to tdc, #1 and finish assembling the t-belt and covers.

It's full of oil and good to go.

Good luck with the next build.

 

[strippedlug]

Thanks alot toybreaker! I wish I would've known that (or rather done the research) before this build. I didn't use that technique, but did do a crank no start for a few cycles. Is this not sufficient? And do you think it's possible that without the oil pump primed, my engine ran 30+ minutes with an air bound oil pump? In other words even though oil was full and clean, if the pump isn't properly primed, it will never pump the oil in the base no matter how long it's running?
If this IS the case, then I can sum it up to doing a poor job researching a very important system! I would of course be pissed and probably walk around the house for a bit kicking myself in the a$$, but at least I would have my answer, and be confident on this next build.

Either way it sounds like a great regimen and I can't wait to try it! I'm a very meticulous tech and am always looking for those safety net procedures so I can watch the other guys in my shop shake their head and laugh. Of course I'm always the one helping them fix their crap, so...
Thanks again toybreaker!
Shane

 

[awdtalontsi1992]

Did you remove the engine and freshen up the block(New Freeze Plugs, etc)? There could have been some crap worked it's way into the oil galleries or your piston squirters. Sounds like you were probably getting some oil to your bottom end or it would have seezed up quicker. Those damned balance shafts are also a likely suspect.

 

[strippedlug]

No I didn't freshen up the block or do anything to actually cause crap to enter the galleries. The block was tight and ran great, and after my first engine's demise, I just wanted to leave working engine alone and go from there.
What exactly is suspect about the balance shafts? Debris you mean? Like I said I left everything alone. I even left the balance shaft belt alone since it had already been replaced a month back.

 

[keymaster]

Another good way to prime the pump is this: When you take the front case off, pack the pump gears and the case with vaseline. You can also pack the tube in the housing with Vaseline, and it will create a vacuum guaranteed to pull oil up. We did this on my 6-bolt swap, and after 3 tries cranking with no spark or fuel, we had oil coming out at the head.

 

[toybreaker]

If your oil pressure gauge showed pressure, and you saw oil splashing around on the top end, you had oil moving in the motor, so the pump wasn't air locked. Pre-lubing the rotating parts/cams with assembly lube during assembly means you probably didn't due any damage with the disable the spark and crank technique.

There are some motors that can't be pre-oiled because the crank drives the pump directly, like the toyota 22re in my truck.In that case, I would recomend you pack those style pumps with assembly lube like lubriplate 105, (I use redline assembly lube mixed with oil to make a slurry, myself) Remove the spark plugs, to reduce the load on the crank, and increase the cranking speed. As soon as the gauge shows pressure, you're good to go. I'm always a little wary about washing the cylinder walls with fuel, so I will disable the fuel injector pulse as well by unplugging the cas.

Since it's so easy to prime the system with the pump on these motors, I won't do it any other way. Consider it cheap insurance.

That being said, I don't think you hurt anything by your technique.



Sometimes, bad things just happen.

I'm sure you will triple check everything this time.

I would pay special attention to the clearances and roundness of the big end of the rods, and the crankshaft rod and main journals.

There is some controversy about balance shafts and oil pressure on these motors. I, myself use them, but I check the clearances with a dial bore gauge, and often end up replacing the bearings. It's not hard to do, and I love a smooth running motor. If you do build a stroker, you might want to consider removing the balance shafts because you're going to have to spend real money getting everything balanced, as the reciprocating weight of your new parts package will change a ton. This will require a whole new bob weight, (used to calculate balance requirements) and rotating balance weight correction at the crank. At that point the carefully calibrated (for the stock weight) counter rotating balance shafts won't really match your new rotating/reciprocating balance requirements, which will reduce their efficiency substantially.

Find a good machinist in your area. I like to ask the high end shops who they use, as they don't tolerate shoddy work. Trust your machinist, and don't beat on him for price, instead, hammer him for quality . Almost all machinists like beer, and having a few with them as you ask, and listen, to their advice. It will pay great divedends in quality control during the machining processes.

I have used clevite 77 bearings on a whole bunch of 4g63t motors, without any issues, so I know they work in these motors.

If you're going to do a stroker motor, try and use a PROVEN package. I've seen a couple of parts packages that use a questionable combination of mis-matched parts...and require some non-subtle modifications to the block, rod small ends, pistons, and crank...Do LOTS of research, and talk to as many people who have built strokers for their imput. Strokers are more complicated and expensive to build correctly, but I can see the advantages when done up nicely.

Again, good luck!!!

 

[strippedlug]

Thanks again for the advice toybreaker. I towed the car to work a little while ago. I'm going to do a tear down tomorrow and see if the source of the problem is evident or not. I'm not sold on the pump theory, but lubrication (or lack thereof) seems the only logical thing that would cause failure of rotating parts on an engine that's always been solid otherwise.
I also don't know for certain that I'm going to go stroked. I have time to think about it and research the possibilities you know? Maybe this could turn out to be a good thing. Maybe I needed this to happen so I can build a real performance engine. Or maybe it's dumb luck, but either way I am going to research different PROVEN packages and combos of stroked and non-stroked setups.
I have a couple of litters (St. Bernard breeder also) due in a couple of weeks and the wife seems to think I'll have alot of play cash to go towards the build. Still just so gun shy, you know? I'll get over it. I just need to find the source so it can be avoided at all costs next time.
I'm going to help out a guy on one of these forums that's local. Wants to do a timing belt maintenance on his GSX, and he's never done anything like that. I figure I should pay it foward; for all the help I recieve here

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

.
I'll let everyone know tomorrow how my bottom looks. ewww
Shane

 

[Lurker]

Sorry to hear about your engine problems.

All I can add is how I prime and reprime my engine when I had the rebuilt put in.

I primed the oil pump with a drill just like someone mentioned earlier, until I see oil seeping out at the cams area. ( the valve cover and timing belt is off )

Then, I also crank it w/o fuel, w/o spark and also without the clutch pedal pressed in.
For the clutch switch, I simply reached down to the pedal area and manually pressed-in the clutch switch, while cranking the starter with the other hand.
I kept cranking until the low oil pressure light went out.

Good luck.

 

[dieseltech]

Is it the same rods? Looking in the picture the rods are all fed oil seperately. Each main has its own oil galley access hole. I'd suspect that the passages are being blocked. I'd suggest removing any plugs and running brushes in all oil passages. Then have your block hot tanked. Then confirm flow using shop air at each main to ensure oil will reach the bearing. I hope this helps. I wish I could post a picture from my CD manual.


I tried to email you a pdf. I hope it works. I'm don't know much about adobe and stuff but if it works there is a good pic of the lubrication system.