DsmWisemen please help!

[dsmspyder97]

Okay, i put a previous post, thought i had asoltution and i was wrong.
90 eclipse Gsx 150k
Completely stock
Optima red top
New alternator
All new fuses
Karking rebuilt motor w/500mi
Rebuilt turbo

Okay origianlly for the initial 500mi i had no problems except for the altenator which i replaced. Was very simple. Only mild problem i had was when i was at idle for longer then 30-40 sec my vacuum would pull to 0 and as it began to fall back to -7 my rpn would shoot to 1500-2000 range. Very annoying especially when i was in the drvive thru So i figured the Idle control solenoid was going bad. I had already purchased a parts car but was awaiting picking it up. Well about a week ago i park the car with no problems, come back out a few minutes later and the car just cranks. Pulled plugs, no spark. So i went and bought new plugs and wires. When i came back i tried starting again and i hard spark and the car turned on. Idled for 3 minutes then shut off. Well i hadnt installed the new plugs and wires so i figured maybe ecu,coils, or igniter. Well I picked up my parts car over the weekend, swapped the ecu and it started fine. Drove it for 2miles then parked. Same problem again, so i pulled the coils and igniter from good running parts car and put them on the gsx. I got a little spark, then it went away. Im thinking that this is a ground problem. Although I searched all the grounds and they all appear to be on. I have troubleshot this to death. The parts car is same year same model, motor just had low compression in cylinder #3. Only wiring issue i can see is a black wire with white stripe on back of intake manifold is exposed. It actually goes into a pin on a plug on the back of the manifold, then runs to firewall. I electrical taped it and still nothing. I have no check engine light, do i possibley have a bad sensor that is sending too much voltage to my ecu and frying it ??? I opened the ecu and saw no problems with the capacitors. Or am i not getting spark from some kind of grounding issue that i canno locate. I just need help. If im not getting ground for spark, would i still have ground for my fuel pump to pulse, because i do have fuel. Is there anything else i can check that would not work if im having a grounding issue, so i can rule other things out?????


Thanks in advance

DsmWisemen

 

[dsmspyder97]

Yep just tried again no spark

 

[dsmspyder97]

just got off work, switching out cam angle sensor, also going to check ignition fuse again

 

[Gs Dewd]

just got off work, switching out cam angle sensor, also going to check ignition fuse again

I was just going to suggest that. I had one go out friday.

 

[GTM]

...
I just need help. If im not getting ground for spark, would i still have ground for my fuel pump to pulse, because i do have fuel. Is there anything else i can check that would not work if im having a grounding issue, so i can rule other things out?????
Thanks in advance
DsmWisemen

This is a good one and I'm getting splinters under my fingernails.

I'm helping my son at the momemt so will be a couple hours before I can give this the scrutiny needed. In the mean time I would if possible install a fuel pressure gauge in the circuit and a volt meter for the coils. You need to be able to catch it in the act of a failure which seems to be heat related. There are a couple of relays which have diodes involved with some of these circuits and maybe failing once they get warm/hot. Also fuel injector circuit could be part of this, also alternator charging circuit may play a factor if the regulator or part of that circuit which feeds into the ECU???

If you can figure out what is stopping after 2-3 min of operation we probably sort it out.

That's a starting point, there may be others who have had an identical problem who can offer more specific info and will hopefully jump in.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[bushy]

Some people have had problems with the wires going into the actual connectors on the ECU coming loose, so check all of those.

Do you smell anything inside of the car, like an electrical burning smell or something like that?

Just dont go buying parts and throwing them in without testing first, I've been down that road and its a very stressful and costly route.

The only thing I can recomend is get your hands on a 2G wiring diagram, and test everything before the coil pack on that circut. Since you've switched coil packs and have new plugs and wires, those arent the problem. You could also try slightly heating up the parts and testing them before and after to see if there is a difference. I dont recomend applying direct heat though =P

 

[dsmspyder97]

Okay thanks for all the input guys. I did alot of work to the car last night, checked all fuses again, all 100% none were burnt. I swapped out the cam angle sensor. Still nothing. I dont even know whether or not swithcing the CAS was worth my time. My chilton says that the CAS controls the fuel pulse??? I thought it controlled spark. Well I still have no spark, do relays go bad, thinking about replacing all relays in my fuse boxes. I also opened both my ecu's neither is fried, i found no signs of heat or burnt/bad capacitors. Im really wondering now. Only thing i found not sure if i previously mentioned was my knock sensor wire was exposed (black wire/white stripe) but i fixed it with electrical tape until i heat shrink/wrap it.

Thanks for the help guys, wish this wasnt my dd now im drivin the wifes car.

:URGH:

 

[dsmspyder97]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention i switched out the coil packs and igniter with good ones, also i had installed a brand new alternator. Still no spark. Although I do have plenty of fuel, when i d/c the fuel line and crank it i have fuel everywhere, plenty of pressure. I was actually driving the car when it failed the second time, I was under WOT for about a mile on the freeway coming from the office, when i slowed to come in the driveway everything dimmed on the dash and i cut out. Odd, but even with jumper cables from a running car all it does is crankWhen i first replaced the alternator it was charging fine, as a side note the distance from the office to the house and the 1 mile wot pull i started the car via jumper cables since my redtop was dead. Also all the parts that i am switching out are off of a running car that had low compression on #3. Yet one more issue, the battery now has charge i can crank w/o a jump. When i was messing with the interior this morning i had the passenger door open, please tell me why i was hearing a loud ticking noise while the passenger door was open. Sounded like it was coming from my fuel pump area. Only does it when the passenger door is open. Never when the drivers is open.

 

[LunarEclips]

what about the power TR unit on the intake manifolt??? Might be bad... if you want, you can drive down to my pad and borrow mine to see if thats the problem...PM me and let me know.

 

[dsmspyder97]

what about the power TR unit on the intake manifolt??? Might be bad... if you want, you can drive down to my pad and borrow mine to see if thats the problem...PM me and let me know.

replaced with working one still nothing, although i forgot t mention that the alternator fuse went again.....im not sure when i re-checked the fuses so many times maybe i was just looking too hard. Pretty much out of ideas? was looking at my wire diagram in my chilton, is the black wire with the white stripe throughout the engine bay "hot" or a ground??? according to my book it appears to be hot running from starter to coils and etc etc, shouldi try to trace this wire since it appears to be an "ignition" wire.......please anyone who can help, btw this is my daily d......

 

[GTM]

replaced with working one still nothing, although i forgot t mention that the alternator fuse went again.....im not sure when i re-checked the fuses so many times maybe i was just looking too hard. Pretty much out of ideas? was looking at my wire diagram in my chilton, is the black wire with the white stripe throughout the engine bay "hot" or a ground??? according to my book it appears to be hot running from starter to coils and etc etc, shouldi try to trace this wire since it appears to be an "ignition" wire.......please anyone who can help, btw this is my daily d......

What amp fuse are you using on the alternator B+ wire? 80, 100, 120???

This wire attaches to an insulated stud on the alternator and is responsible for charging the battery. As designed this is a power output to the battery, when you connect to the alternator there should be no sparks. Just last week I had a member who's stud was shorting out because of broken insulators while he was pulling the motor. Once together it started shorting and blowing fuses.

......................

As for the BW (black with white trace) feed many circuits including radio, cruise control, locks, and many warning lights through a subordinate fuse block. If you don't have a radio then suspect the ign switch or the W feed wire to the switch.

...........................

Have you checked all the fusable links out of the battery?

Cheers,
GTM

 

[dsmspyder97]

What amp fuse are you using on the alternator B+ wire? 80, 100, 120???

This wire attaches to an insulated stud on the alternator and is responsible for charging the battery. As designed this is a power output to the battery, when you connect to the alternator there should be no sparks. Just last week I had a member who's stud was shorting out because of broken insulators while he was pulling the motor. Once together it started shorting and blowing fuses.

......................

As for the BW (black with white trace) feed many circuits including radio, cruise control, locks, and many warning lights through a subordinate fuse block. If you don't have a radio then suspect the ign switch or the W feed wire to the switch.

...........................

Have you checked all the fusable links out of the battery?

Cheers,
GTM

Im using a 80a for the alternator. I replaced last night and tried again. Still nothing. Im wondering is the next step Crank angle sensor? Im not really sure where to go from here.
Now im kinda stumped, i know i put the CAS in correctly, but i suppose theres limited things left that this could be, so i guess im just waiting to weed out other possibilities till i hit the source.

Is it possible if theres a bad connection on the alternator i wont have spark? Is the 80a even the correct fuse for the alternator. Help me out tuners.

 

[theSicKness]

well i had a simular problem mind turned out to be one of the wires were loose in my crank sensor...had no fuel or spark...replaced the sensor and worked fine...


Good Luck
Jesse

 

[dsmspyder97]

probally gonna try this afterwork

 

[GTM]

Im using a 80a for the alternator. I replaced last night and tried again. Still nothing. Im wondering is the next step Crank angle sensor? Im not really sure where to go from here.
Now im kinda stumped, i know i put the CAS in correctly, but i suppose theres limited things left that this could be, so i guess im just waiting to weed out other possibilities till i hit the source.

Is it possible if theres a bad connection on the alternator i wont have spark? Is the 80a even the correct fuse for the alternator. Help me out tuners.

Ahha, I believe this is supposed to be a 120 amp, and the fusable links are 100 amps. If you blow any one of these you would loose a significant portion of your power distribution.

There are about 3 circuit diagrams for this, Non turbo, turbo and 2.4 but I'm fairly confident that I'm reading the specs correctly. Do you remember if it was wine or red color... these would be the 120Amps? Fix this and let us know if it solves the problem.
..................

You should be able to pin out the CAS with an ohm meter, I don't have any specs off the top of my head but believe they exist.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[dsmspyder97]

Big thanks to all, considering i couldnt locate the proper specs for the fuses. Im gonna try that when i get off work today. Thanks for all the input, keeping my fingers crossed on this one....

 

[oldman]

Did you try swapping ECU with the parts car? This is just like when my ECU failed. Just because the ECU looks good physically doesn't it is, a circuit board can fail due to reasons other than leaky capacitors. The fact that your CEL light doesn't come on when the key at "on" position further suggests that your ecu isn't powering on.

 

[dsmspyder97]

CEL light? not sure what that is. Way back in my confusing thread i thought that my original ecu was toast so then i swapped in the parts car ecu. it started fine then when i hit the driveway the car shutoff again. Hasn't started or sparked since

Duh....CEL = Check engine light....brain fart

 

[oldman]

Yes the check engine light. Since the replacement ECU worked for a while before it failed again I would continue to look in that direction. Check power/relay to the ecu, check grounds, fuses (yes again ). Keep in mind that bad sensors, like an isc, can also damage the ecu.

 

[dsmspyder97]

so i guess i should swap out the isc. But in theory if the reason my ecu took a dump in the 1st place was due to the isc or another sensor.......would that mean that on that mile and a half pull my ecu got destroyed again hence no spark?

 

[oldman]

so i guess i should swap out the isc. But in theory if the reason my ecu took a dump in the 1st place was due to the isc or another sensor.......would that mean that on that mile and a half pull my ecu got destroyed again hence no spark?

It's possible (definitely do not install another ecu before further testing) but it's only one of the possibilities, I posted to make sure you don't lose focus on the ecu since it's clear that it's not powering up, the key is to find out why.

 

[GTM]

It's possible (definitely do not install another ecu before further testing) but it's only one of the possibilities, I posted to make sure you don't lose focus on the ecu since it's clear that it's not powering up, the key is to find out why.

There should be test points to determine if he's getting voltage to the ECU.

I'm suspicious that he has a good battery and his alternator is doing it's job trying to put out the 100 or 120 amps and is blowing the main charge fuse which he identified was only rated at 80 amps. Unfortunately the PDF file copy I have has a wrinkle right where the fusable links are and I can't pinpoing which fusable link may also have burned. Some of these fusable links feed into sub fusable boards which will prevent the CEL from lighting and also the radio from coming on. That was just one observation for a quick check to help isolate the involved circuits.

On top of that this alternator has 4 wires of which 2 feed into/out of the ECU as part of the regulator and I have no diagram of how they influence either component. Hopefully his battery cables, grounds and positive connections are clean.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[dsmspyder97]

Wow now that you bring it up, my radio does not come on......

 

[oldman]

This is where steve would be mighty handy.

 

[dsmspyder97]

okay, update from last night.

I was unsuccessful on starting the car but i did a few more tests recommended to me by GTM (thank you sir) and i think i learned a lil more about my problem. To my understanding via GTM theres 2 ways to tell if your ECU is 'Powering Up' #1 When you stick the key in and move it to start position your CEL (Check engine light) should come on for a few seconds #2 When you do the same with the key your boost gauge should go from laying flat to a reading of 0 (Because the stock gauge on the cluster is not operated by vacuum like aftermarket gauges, it is operated by the ecu and maf readings) So when i did this procedure i had the boost gauge read 0 but no CEL. Also I think i have the wrong ampage fuse for my alternator im running a 80a, is that correct? Or should it be higher like a 100 or 120? I checked all plug connections and all were tight and secure throughout the engine bay. If someone is local and will ing to let me throw my ecu into their car to see if it starts or not i guess iw ould be able to see if my ecu really is fried? Is that even a good idea wisemen, are there adverse effects to throwing a 'bad' Ecu into a good running car?

Once again thanks to all, looking forward to getting my daily d back on the road, it looks kinda sad setting next to my project and parts dsm's