A few Q's concerning the head

[HondaMan]

OK first of all, I just recently bought a 91 Talon tsi awd. It sat for about a year or two, so... my problem is this...

Apparently the guy didn't have any antifreeze in the car and it popped 2 freeze plugs out. And to make a long story short, It cranked and drove 1/2 a mile to a mechanics shop where I changed the oil and had enough time to get one freeze plug in before the mechanic closed his shop for the weekend. I was 2 hours from my house and had got dropped off. I didn't have the tools to replace the other freeze plug so I deceided to just drive it untill it started getting hot and then turn it off and let it cool...etc...untill I made it home. Now keep in mind that I didn't have any coolant in the system, b/c of the freeze plug not being in. So anyways I drove the car around the towm I was in for a day (short distances and kept a close eye on my temp guage). And it drove fine. But when I deceided to try the trip home, it started acting up and it wsn't even that hot. Now it has recently been brought to my attention that the temp sensors for the guage are supposed to be submerged in water to be accurate. So does this mean that I was really driving the car when it was steaming hot even though the temp guage only showed a little past half-way? And if this is the case...what did I do? I did a compression test and it showed 60 in cylinder 1 and 0 in cylinders 2, 3, and 4. I know this is bad, but I hoping for the best (blown head gasket, between the cylinders?)

 

[Sean485]

The temp senders will not work correctly unless they are submerged in water and it is hard on the waterpump to not have coolant to help lube it. If you were driving without coolant for more than a mile you overheated it, if it really has compression like that I doubt it would run but chances are at the very least you killed the head gasket and likely warped the head.

 

[HondaMan]

I feel dumb....So anyways now that I am going to replacing the head...is there anything else that I could've screwed? Namely the block? And while I'm at it, if I understand it right, I can take the head off of a N/T motor and it's the same? Or is that wrong? And yes that actually was the compression numbers. I know I will be replacing the regular stuff along with this also...(waterpump, timing and balance shaft belts...). And thanks alot for the help

 

[GTM]

OK first of all, I just recently bought a 91 Talon tsi awd. It sat for about a year or two, so... my problem is this...
...
So does this mean that I was really driving the car when it was steaming hot even though the temp guage only showed a little past half-way? And if this is the case...what did I do? I did a compression test and it showed 60 in cylinder 1 and 0 in cylinders 2, 3, and 4. I know this is bad, but I hoping for the best (blown head gasket, between the cylinders?)

Your compression check was not accurate.

It was more than steaming hot, more much more. If you pull the oil filler cap I'll bet the smell is nausiating.

You will need pistons and rings, and quite possibly a rebore or even a replacment short block. Yes the sender must be in water to record accurate temps. If it gets hot enough and the cooling system can generate enough steam under pressure (you did not) you might get some accurate reading.

This must be your first car, this was a very bad thing you did and you will have learned a very expensive lesson. I don't understand why you didn't park it and go searching for all the freeze plugs even if it meant sleeping in the car until they opened the next day.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[HondaMan]

Your compression check was not accurate.

It was more than steaming hot, more much more. If you pull the oil filler cap I'll bet the smell is nausiating.

You will need pistons and rings, and quite possibly a rebore or even a replacment short block. Yes the sender must be in water to record accurate temps. If it gets hot enough and the cooling system can generate enough steam under pressure (you did not) you might get some accurate reading.

This must be your first car, this was a very bad thing you did and you will have learned a very expensive lesson. I don't understand why you didn't park it and go searching for all the freeze plugs even if it meant sleeping in the car until they opened the next day.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Cheers,
GTM

OK What was wrong with the compression check? Which is realyy pointless from what you tell me anyway, but no this isn't my first car but as I stated in my first post I was not aware of the sensers being in the water... and even though the circumstances brought me to the conclusion of trying to drive my car I now know that it was definitly not worth it now So... What now???

Thanks for the replys

 

[HondaMan]

ok if I ubderstand right, the 2.0 in the 1Gs are all the same (4G63)...But im sure the internals are different, only the block is the same? Since more than likely just about everything on this engine is FUBAR'd what are my most logical options? Any help is much appreiciated.

 

[GTM]

OK What was wrong with the compression check? Which is realyy pointless from what you tell me anyway,
...
.. and even though the circumstances brought me to the conclusion of trying to drive my car I now know that it was definitly not worth it now So... What now???
Thanks for the replys

Not meaning to be insulting but what you reported also makes me think that you did not give it 3-4 compressions on each cylr with wide open throttle. You didn't mention squirting any oil down them and then repeating the test.

Yes, it probably is a moot point. I saw a post mentioning head work which may or may not be the case. There are a lot of people who want to help but don't have the foundations needed to always be accurate. The head could be badly warped but the valves probably survived, it would be wise to grind them at least while it's apart. You will want to know if the cams were damaged (bent) because the head may have warped. Once the head is off you can pull the cam followers and then should be able to rotate by hand, if they come up tight in places then suspect more problems. Remember if it's warped on the gasket side the top side will also be warped. Yes it's possible to straighten them before machining, just must meet specs.

Everything in the block will have to be checked very carefully, you might luck out and bearings will be good though still should be replaced. Balance shafts like the cams must turn freely... etc.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RoasT BeeF]

GTM!

Where have u been?

 

[GTM]

GTM!

Where have u been?

Hi RB:

Wasn't common knowledge but my son lost his leg in a motorcycle accident last March so been involved with him. Hasn't slowed him up with his goals, on full scholarship at Oberlin Conservatory of Music. Dad is slowly coming to grips with it. Sold his Talon and what remained of the bike, bought a Volvo 740GLe for $100, spent another $200 and we drove it back to Oberlin getting 27-28 mpg... Weee!
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You want to help this guy out, you have been into more of these engines than I have and can give more specific info. I think he's cooked the engine pretty good, I don't know which engines had the piston oilers which I consider very important.

Let me know if you can't or don't have time. Same email address or PM if you want.

Cheers,
GTM

BTW his Talon is up close or in Denver last we heard.

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Sorry to hear about your son but it sounds like he is doing OK. We've missed you around here.

So HondaMan, is your car near Denver? Where at exactly and where are you? It does sound like you cooked the engine pretty good. Driving without coolant even for short distances is a big no-no. It's ok, doesnt help to gripe about it now though, just get it fixed and move on. If you are lucky you only have a blown HG. Do a leakdown test to find out exactly what you got and we will go from there.

 

[HondaMan]

Actually the car is sitting a little north of Atlanta...And where would I get a leakdown guage from? I asked local autoparts stores and nothing. But I am going to try to do another compression test since GTM said something was wrong with the numbers, which I agree, 0 for cylinders 2,3,& 4 didn't sound right to me either.

GTM...I don't know you, but I'm still sorry to hear about your son. It's very impressive for someone to be able to face something like that and continue with their life. Thanks for your help...

 

[HondaMan]

And by the way...how much am I looking at to just buy a used engine and replace it? (reputible place)

 

[huafist]

GTM -
Sorry to hear about your son - I've got a student in my Kung Fu school that lost her leg in a motorcycle accident. As long as he keeps his eye on the ball he'll be ok

HondaMan-
Castings and valves are the same on the 1G Turbo and N/T heads. The cams are different, and the N/T has a bolt plugging the oil galley on the CAS side of the head (where the turbo oil feed attaches). The turbo banjo bolt will thread directly in, so it's a direct swap. I agree with GTM and RB - you cooked it all the way to rebuild.
I don't know what the going price is for a used 4G63T in your area - around here they're impossible to find. Have a machine shop check the head for warpage... as badly as you overheated it, I think I'd have the deck of the block checked for warpage as well. If the head is warped, salvage the valves (they're good to have around in case of timing belt disaster), chuck it, and get a replacement from a junkyard. As GTM stated, also have the cams checked because if the head was warped, they may have been bent. If the block deck is warped, see if it can be decked to fix it. If not, it's new engine time. If the block checks out fine, I'd have a reputable shop rebuild the engine.

If possible, I'd go the rebuild route instead of buying a junkyard motor - you get a 0-mile motor for roughly what you'll spend on a used engine w/an unknown history in a junkyard.

Good luck.

 

[HondaMan]

Well, my only problem with taking my head and block to a machine shop etc, etc... is b/c it's all money. That's why I was asking about gettting another engine from a reputible place and just switching them out...But before I jump into that, I am going to check what I can on my fried motor just for principle. Is there not any place you guys can buy turbo AWD engines from?

 

[RoasT BeeF]

I hear the Kar King, who is a vendor on this site, sells engines for these cars. Also try www.mitsubishigraveyard.com and see what they have.

 

[GTM]

Actually the car is sitting a little north of Atlanta...And where would I get a leakdown guage from? I asked local autoparts stores and nothing. But I am going to try to do another compression test since GTM said something was wrong with the numbers, which I agree, 0 for cylinders 2,3,& 4 didn't sound right to me either.

GTM...I don't know you, but I'm still sorry to hear about your son. It's very impressive for someone to be able to face something like that and continue with their life. Thanks for your help...

Atlanta, yikes. Rent a tow dolly and get it home?? Surprised the shop didn't offer some alternatives rather than kicking you out to completely fend for yourself. They make expandable freeze plugs that fit several sizes, don't know if the chain parts houses have them. Will it run at all? You could retorque the head bolts, might help.
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While a leakdown can provide valuable info, normal would be to take the first set of compression checks dry and then squirt several shots of oil in each cylr and retake them again. If you are stuck on the road a trick is to use a long screwdriver (I am very much against sticking screwdrivers in any spark plug hole ever) or dowel down the spark plug hole, then drizzel the oil down the shaft so you can get some idea how much you dump in there. It also alows you to angle it against the cylr wall for better distribution. If there is a significant change (relative) you suspect pistons and rings.
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Thanks all for the good thoughts about my son. Fortunately no head or hand injuries so he was even practicing and playing duets while in the hospital.
http://community.webshots.com/album/184570474joUUYq
Anyone is welcome to browse around other albums. I've not put a lot of stuff up to help auto or motorcycles or my autocycle project.

Cheers,
GTM