nitrous spray on IC

[terminaltsi]

i've seen a couple kits for spray8ing on the ic and i really like the idea, esp. in the city of hell, phoenix, where it's 88 by 7 am. at that time, the car runs well, but by 1 pm, when it's 110, it runs like crap.... i think a nice cold spray of nitrous or CO2 would help like nothing else. anybody tried this yet? BTW, i have the RRE FMIC.

 

[NosLaser]

Can I ask an honest question? Why spray it on the intercooler and gain maybe 10-15 horsepower when you can spray it into the motor and gain 50-75-100 horsepower? Just a dumb question...

Regards,

 

[terminaltsi]

well....actually that kit was dyno tested on a turbo honduh and gained 50 HP to the wheels by spraying the ic. i figure a cold intake charge will allow me to run more boost anyway, esp. in the extreme heat here....so not onlyh will i gain power by cooling the intake air, but also by the abillity to run higher boost levels.

 

[NosLaser]

And how would you not get those gains, and THEN SOME with spraying it into the motor?

Regards,

 

[terminaltsi]

well i'm sure one could, but i have no experience with nitrous, much less any experience using a turbo and nitrous.....fueling problems, detonating, etc......that #@%#@%#@%#@% scares me frankly, and i'd rather just be safe and spray the ic. have you had any problems iwth yours? have you done anyting special to it?

 

[DSSA]

The one setup I've been considering is having a log run across the top of the IC, and having the purge spray a distributed pattern across the front of the core. Of course, after purging, the rest of the nitrous will be going to it's intended destination of the engine itself. Probably more of a pain in the ass then it's worth, but an idea I was kicking around. If I'm purging to the atmosphere anyway, it might as well do some good.

 

[JimmyNY]

Originally posted by NosLaser
And how would you not get those gains, and THEN SOME with spraying it into the motor?

Because it is a completely different set up. When injecting nitrous, the point isn't to cool the air as it enters the chamber. Its the stronger combustion, and it happens to have a cooling effect as it expands and reacts with air. But if you spray the intercooler, the air is cooled before it enters the chamber. How can you think that injecting nitrous and spraying the IC will yield the same results?

 

[NosLaser]

...Because it is a completely different set up. When injecting nitrous, the point isn't to cool the air as it enters the chamber. Its the stronger combustion, and it happens to have a cooling effect as it expands and reacts with air. But if you spray the intercooler, the air is cooled before it enters the chamber. How can you think that injecting nitrous and spraying the IC will yield the same results?...

Okay, you got me. The results spraying it into the motor will be 10 times BETTER. First off, the cooling affect comes from liquid nitrous in the bottle being transformed into a gas. Right there you have taken care of the cooling affect part of it. And then you have the added affect of the added oxygen, and more powerful combustion process. Why would you waste money on a nitrous kit to NOT spray it into the motor? It doesn't make any sense! Are people THAT afraid of saying they have nitrous, because it is 'cheating?'

Regards,

 

[JimmyNY]

Originally posted by NosLaser
Okay, you got me. The results spraying it into the motor will be 10 times BETTER. First off, the cooling affect comes from liquid nitrous in the bottle being transformed into a gas. Right there you have taken care of the cooling affect part of it. And then you have the added affect of the added oxygen, and more powerful combustion process. Why would you waste money on a nitrous kit to NOT spray it into the motor? It doesn't make any sense! Are people THAT afraid of saying they have nitrous, because it is 'cheating?'

#1. The cooling effect of nitrous in a combustion engine when you inject it is not the expanding gas. That has something to do with it, but any expanding gas will have this effect, so it is moot to discuss it with nitrous. (Also, this effect doesn't cool the engine. It only cools right where the gas is expanding). The cooling effect that is more specific to nitrous is at 565 degrees farenheit, the nitrous breaks into nitrogen and oxygen and has a cooling effect.

#2. The most effective way to utilize nitrous would be spray it, and inject it (obviously). For the most power, injecting it is best. But some work may need to be done (i.e., internals, or retarded spark plug to avoid detonation). So spraying the IC may be a better option for some people.

 

[terminaltsi]

#2. The most effective way to utilize nitrous would be spray it, and inject it (obviously). For the most power, injecting it is best. But some work may need to be done (i.e., internals, or retarded spark plug to avoid detonation). So spraying the IC may be a better option for some people.

this is my concern.... what mods are necessary to accomplish this effectively and reliably? i have no problem with using nitrous as a power adder, i just like the idea of cooling the IC with it....BTW, i would use CO2 instead of nitrous in that application.

 

[Dragonfly215]

why not do both?

 

[JimmyNY]

Originally posted by terminaltsi


this is my concern.... what mods are necessary to accomplish this effectively and reliably? i have no problem with using nitrous as a power adder, i just like the idea of cooling the IC with it....BTW, i would use CO2 instead of nitrous in that application.

To accomplish which effectively? Spraying the IC is fairly safe, and would be effective. You don't have to worry about much there. When injecting, there are a few things you can do (but don't necessarily HAVE to do). 1. Get a new ECU. 2. Retard timing of spark plugs 3. Get a wet shot (its supposedly safer) and 4. Don't get too big of a shot. Start small.

 

[NosLaser]

....#1. The cooling effect of nitrous in a combustion engine when you inject it is not the expanding gas. That has something to do with it, but any expanding gas will have this effect, so it is moot to discuss it with nitrous. (Also, this effect doesn't cool the engine. It only cools right where the gas is expanding). The cooling effect that is more specific to nitrous is at 565 degrees farenheit, the nitrous breaks into nitrogen and oxygen and has a cooling effect....

I'm going to try to explain this again. When nitrous oxide gas is compressed in a tank above 760 pounds per square inch, the gaseous nitrous turns into liquid. When this liquid nitrous is released, the lower pressure transforms the liquid nitrous back into a gas, but also reduces it's temperature at the same time, which drops the nitrous to -127 degrees F. Before the oxygen can even contribute to combusting fuel in the cylinder, just releasing the gas into the intake manifold can drop inlet air temperature as much as 65 degrees. In the intake manifold, nitrous is still a combined molecule, but when it reaches 572 degrees (not 565 like you guessed, but close enough) the oxygen is then free to combust more fuel. To say the cooling affect doesn't come from the liquid turning into a gas but rather the process of chemical de-bonding is flat out wrong, I don't care how technical you try to describe it.

...To accomplish which effectively? Spraying the IC is fairly safe, and would be effective. You don't have to worry about much there. When injecting, there are a few things you can do (but don't necessarily HAVE to do). 1. Get a new ECU. 2. Retard timing of spark plugs 3. Get a wet shot (its supposedly safer) and 4. Don't get too big of a shot. Start small....

I honestly thought you were on to something with your first post, but this shows you have no idea how a nitrous system works, nor have you ever used one. When you spray the intercooler, you are simply spraying across the surface to simply cool the core down. Why on earth would you need to retard timing for that?? And WHY on EARTH would you spray a wet shot onto the intercooler????? You would spray gasoline on there too? Come on man! This isn't my first rodeo. Do some research on nitrous, and bring your technical chemistry back with you, and then let's have a real discussion.

Regards,

 

[NosLaser]

Terminaltsi,

It's aparent you don't want to take my advice. Spraying the intercooler is a viable option, but won't give you the astronomical gains associated with running nitrous. I think if you are willing to spend the money and buy the kit, then you would be much happier with using a small shot and spraying into the motor. With nitrous, you don't even NEED an intercooler, although every bit that you can get the air closer to ambient temperature the better. If you are interested in realizing a big gain through nitrous, then I will talk you through a nice setup for your car that will make real power. You can take advice from someone who made 423 wheel HP on a small 16g and a dry kit, or from someone who got an A in Chemistry and saw a nitrous system on 'The Fast and The Furious' once. The choice is yours, but I can only show you the door...

Regards,

 

[terminaltsi]

It's aparent you don't want to take my advice.

that's not quite true. i'm just trying to gather as much info as possible to decide which route i want to take. i just want to make sure that shooting nitrous into the engine will be safe enough for a daily driver. i don't have the resources anymore to be constantly fixing things (back in school).

here are my relevant mods, if you don't mind, tell me what else i need.

walbro 255
evo III ex. manifold
victory performance 02 housing
3" DP
3" exhausst, no cat
SAFC
the usual guages
TMO datalogger
big 16G
RRE FMIC
all IC piping


660cc injectors should be here in about a month.

 

[JimmyNY]

Originally posted by NosLaser
I'm going to try to explain this again. When nitrous oxide gas is compressed in a tank above 760 pounds per square inch, the gaseous nitrous turns into liquid. When this liquid nitrous is released, the lower pressure transforms the liquid nitrous back into a gas, but also reduces it's temperature at the same time, which drops the nitrous to -127 degrees F. Before the oxygen can even contribute to combusting fuel in the cylinder, just releasing the gas into the intake manifold can drop inlet air temperature as much as 65 degrees. In the intake manifold, nitrous is still a combined molecule, but when it reaches 572 degrees (not 565 like you guessed, but close enough) the oxygen is then free to combust more fuel. To say the cooling affect doesn't come from the liquid turning into a gas but rather the process of chemical de-bonding is flat out wrong, I don't care how technical you try to describe it.

I honestly thought you were on to something with your first post, but this shows you have no idea how a nitrous system works, nor have you ever used one. When you spray the intercooler, you are simply spraying across the surface to simply cool the core down. Why on earth would you need to retard timing for that?? And WHY on EARTH would you spray a wet shot onto the intercooler????? You would spray gasoline on there too? Come on man! This isn't my first rodeo. Do some research on nitrous, and bring your technical chemistry back with you, and then let's have a real discussion.

Regards,

First of all, I didn't say that there wasn't a cooling effect when the gas expands. There is. And I say there is. So read the whole post before you make %#@% up. Second, there is a cooling effect when the nitrous splits into oxygen and nitrogen. Its not worth arguing about.
In my second paragraph, you must have misread that as well. When i was talking about retarding the timing, and the wet shot, and things like that, I was talking about when you INJECT it, not spray the IC. You must have misread, because thats just stupid.
I never saw fast and the furious. I don't know why you make generalizations. Its obvious you profile people based upon information they have, and you are angry because I know more than you. Its okay, it takes people a while to realize they are inferior. So please. Its not worth arguing about. Just crawl back into your hole, and shut your mouth.

 

[NosLaser]

Chris...I know our agreement, but it is just sooooo tempting to rip this guy a new one. I am practicing tremendous restraint here.

...First of all, I didn't say that there wasn't a cooling effect when the gas expands. There is. And I say there is. So read the whole post before you make %#@% up. Second, there is a cooling effect when the nitrous splits into oxygen and nitrogen. Its not worth arguing about....

The cooling affect that you are realizing with a nitrous system comes only from the liquid nitrous being transformed into a gas. No where in anything that I have ever read or experienced on nitrous does it say additional cooling comes from the molecule splitting. The only reason you inject N2O instead of pure oxygen is because Nitrogen acts as a combustion buffer. If you injected pure oxygen, the combustion process would be so violent that it would destroy the motor, even with the smallest of shot.


...In my second paragraph, you must have misread that as well. When i was talking about retarding the timing, and the wet shot, and things like that, I was talking about when you INJECT it, not spray the IC. You must have misread, because thats just stupid....

I re-read that paragraph and you are right. I mis-read your statement, but more so because the quote you took from Terminal Tsi was equally as confusing.

...I never saw fast and the furious. I don't know why you make generalizations. Its obvious you profile people based upon information they have, and you are angry because I know more than you. Its okay, it takes people a while to realize they are inferior. So please. Its not worth arguing about. Just crawl back into your hole, and shut your mouth....

!!! At least you make me laugh. No, you don't know more than me. You are trying to argue with me for the sake of arguing. I'll coin a popular term for DSM'ers. "show me proof." Prove to me that you know more than me. Apparently you have never used nitrous before, and you are basing your information on hearsay. This is my hole Mary, so why don't you come try to shut my mouth? I really don't like arguing with idiots because you'll simply bring me down to your level, and then beat me with experience.

Regards,

 

[NosLaser]

...walbro 255
evo III ex. manifold
victory performance 02 housing
3" DP
3" exhausst, no cat
SAFC
the usual guages
TMO datalogger
big 16G
RRE FMIC
all IC piping


660cc injectors should be here in about a month....

You are doing better than I thought you were. Now that I'm done playing with that child up there, I'll answer the real question at hand. You have a nice setup, and I would definately wait for the 660's to come in before spraying the car. Start of small, with a 50 shot wet kit. Pull your base timing back to stock if you have ever adjusted it. I would suggest checking the timing anyway before spraying the car to ensure that it's at 5 degrees BTDC. Install new plugs, NGK BRP7ES gapped at .028". Use race gas the first time you spray, just as an anti-detonant because you never know what adjustments you may have to make. The nice part about a nitrous system is they are jetted on the rich side from the factory as a safety precaution. If you need install help, I can help you with that, or you can locate diagrams online as well. Add a set of Web Cam street grinds to that mix, and you will be getting very close to my setup on the Laser. You actually have one up on me because I didn't have a front mount, although I had a very nice balanced/blueprinted bottom end that was .030" over with all stock internals. With getting the nitrous up to around a 75 shot, I don't see why with your setup and cams, you can't make 400 wheel HP on race gas with the 16g. If you decide to do it, good luck, and let me know how I can help.

Regards,

 

[terminaltsi]

ok, silly question, but how do i set base timing? i've just never bothered tolook into that.
i run bpr7es plugs already.
i have another head that i'm going to be building, with full port/polish, valves, and cams, so that will be nice.
thanksfor your advice.