Official no FMIC +METH, how well will it do?

[Car Cannibal]

Jesus, you're all over the place Turboglen.

I admire your quest for power and wished you would've maxed out the no intercooler/meth injection setup before moving on multiple times. Though I can't blame you for going with E85 and an intercooler.

IMO, if you were to go M2 or M3 pre turbo water injection and then had two M15 nozzles running straight meth you would've achieved your low inlet temps and denser air charge, especially if you eventually went with a much larger turbo like a 61mm.

Meth will cool the charge more than water, the GN crowd proved this years ago and a few others on here have the theory to back that up.

I agree that using the water pre turbo might be an issue with the turbo blades in the long run, but it would help the turbo at higher psi make the charge denser and act like a slightly bigger turbo. And most of us change turbos every 30k miles anyways so who cares right?

And running no IC and pipes is a nice plus in spool up, weight and $$.

[H82lose91]

Just thought i would add to this thread. Went to the track sunday. Ran ok not great. Went 12.4@110 full weight E316g modded sidemount, pumpas and Methanol. Running a single M15. Ambient was 91*. IATs even with sitting in the staging lanes would drop into the low 80's and climb just into the 100's through the trap. Not bad in my opinion. This was on 19psi as well. No knock.

Tonight i dropped the modded SMIC. Saw an increase of roughly 1psi (still need to intake leak test since this change) IATS in 4th peaked at 120* ambient measured at the start of logging was 91* as well. Not bad. Injection is again single nozzle pre-TBE post BOV. No knock.

Tomorrow adding a M10 and putting some timing back in up top. Maybe hit the track again friday.

[RipperXX]

"Yes it does . There was post turbo injection in the first log. Then the second and third there was post turbo and preturbo injection. The only difference is the introduction of the preturbo injection. Dsmlink shows a clear hp increase injecting preturbo without a retune: 30hp difference. After the retune there was an increase in 10 peak hp. There is a 50hp increase at 5K between not using preturbo injection and after using it. The powerband is GOBS wider."



That alone almost makes me want to ditch my GM MAFT setup and go with a 2G MAF or something (not sure what is REALLY best 2g, Evo MAF etc.) And start injecting pre-turbo. I still don't see how it possible for it to help so damn much I get it's at the source of the compressing air and so that makes since that it will absorbe more heat. But it's taking up space as well. But I guess the denser air more than makes up for it.


Anyway 30-50hp more just from that and then throw in a set of cams to boot. Wow, that would make a day and night difference.



Any idea how much broader the power band was? ( I have limited time online so and actually have to go now so I can't read this whole thread to try to find out) THX

[dsm-onster]

Originally Posted by RipperXX

. . . I still don't see how it possible for it to help so damn much I get it's at the source of the compressing air and so that makes since that it will absorbe more heat. But it's taking up space as well. But I guess the denser air more than makes up for it.

Well, the theory goes for wet compression-- which is pre-compressor injection-- is that the air temp at the compressor is far over the boiling point for water. So when the water mist reaches this air, it "explosively" changes state to a gas. This sudden expansion actually compresses air. It's not about simply absorbing heat. It's about absorbing the energy and converting back to usable work. Since the lost heat is now doing work compressing air, less work is needed from the turbine shaft. The compressor rpm goes down to keep the boost the same and more exhaust has to be wastegated for that to happen. Since more exhaust gases are wastegated, there's flow out the tail pipe uninhibited which helps cylinder filling.

So less energy needed to reach a boost level means that the turbo looks like it spools faster, and means that the backpressure in the exhaust manifold is lower for that particular boost number. More power and more power earlier. It is like running a VERY efficient small compressor wheel.

NASA did some experimenting where the water injection was turned way up and 50% of the fuel was removed. This was done post compressor. But the engine maintained nearly the same power level and in many instances gained power. They theorized that the otto cycle engine only uses about 30% of the energy of the fuel burn and does no more significant work by 35ish degrees ATDC. The rest of the energy at that point is heat. The addition of enough water into the combustion stroke absorbed that energy VERY fast and expanded VERY fast through the entire stroke from 35 degrees ATDC to BDC. A gas/steam hybrid. The same principle: expansion of water mist is used to recover lost energy wasted as heat.

[RipperXX]

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

Since the lost heat is now doing work compressing air, less work is needed from the turbine shaft. The compressor rpm goes down to keep the boost the same and more exhaust has to be wastegated for that to happen. Since more exhaust gases are wastegated, there's flow out the tail pipe uninhibited which helps cylinder filling.

So less energy needed to reach a boost level means that the turbo looks like it spools faster, and means that the backpressure in the exhaust manifold is lower for that particular boost number. More power and more power earlier. It is like running a VERY efficient small compressor wheel.

Wouldn't that only apply to a wastegate setup that is vented?

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

NASA did some experimenting where the water injection was turned way up and 50% of the fuel was removed. This was done post compressor. But the engine maintained nearly the same power level and in many instances gained power. They theorized that the otto cycle engine only uses about 30% of the energy of the fuel burn and does no more significant work by 35ish degrees ATDC. The rest of the energy at that point is heat. The addition of enough water into the combustion stroke absorbed that energy VERY fast and expanded VERY fast through the entire stroke from 35 degrees ATDC to BDC. A gas/steam hybrid. The same principle: expansion of water mist is used to recover lost energy wasted as heat.

See this I find VERY interesting because there are a few guys in Japan that are running a gas/water hybrid skyline. They claim they doubled the fuel mileage of the car from like 350 to about 800 miles per tank. And they claim there is no power loss.

I didn't know how credible it was since it was on youtube but hey, that makes it sound very possible.

[dsm-onster]

Originally Posted by RipperXX

Wouldn't that only apply to a wastegate setup that is vented?

No all wastegate deigns apply. Any wastegate when open flows better than any turbine wheel for your engine. Or you would never get spool.

Originally Posted by RipperXX

See this I find VERY interesting because there are a few guys in Japan that are running a gas/water hybrid skyline. They claim they doubled the fuel mileage of the car from like 350 to about 800 miles per tank. And they claim there is no power loss.

I didn't know how credible it was since it was on youtube but hey, that makes it sound very possible.

It's not just possible. It was done in the 30s by NACA (now NASA) . Imagine brewing your own ethanol and making e-85 for about $1.45 per gal. (Mr Peepers control yourself .) You'll get 22 mpg if you stay out of her with e-85. Then double that fuel mileage. 44mpg and paying $1.45 for each gallon. With 102 octane, you'll have more potential too.

[RipperXX]

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

No all wastegate deigns apply. Any wastegate when open flows better than any turbine wheel for your engine. Or you would never get spool.

Um yea, I understand that. But the way you worded it I guess confused me. Your comment about lowering backpressure and something about exhaust out the tail pipe made me think you were talking about a vented waste gate setup and it overall lowering the back pressure on the whole system.



And yes that would be awesome if it were a fairly easy conversion (that didn't look ugly as sin lol) And mixing your own fuel would help keep it more consistant as well. But untill that shit goes mainstream (if ever) I guess i'll still pay at the pump

[dsm-onster]

Originally Posted by RipperXX

Um yea, I understand that. But the way you worded it I guess confused me. Your comment about lowering backpressure and something about exhaust out the tail pipe made me think you were talking about a vented waste gate setup and it overall lowering the back pressure on the whole system.

I'll quote what I sid: "Since more exhaust gases are wastegated, there's flow out the tail pipe uninhibited which helps cylinder filling." Flow out the tailpipe uninhibited is, simply, what a wastegate does. It's better for an O2 dump. But still ANY wastegate provides a path for exhaust to basically free flow.

Originally Posted by RipperXX

And yes that would be awesome if it were a fairly easy conversion (that didn't look ugly as sin lol) And mixing your own fuel would help keep it more consistant as well. But untill that shit goes mainstream (if ever) I guess i'll still pay at the pump

Conversion? of what? to running e-85? This is simply an injector upgrade. Or if your injectors are big enough, simply a retune. . .

Running high water flow to mimic NACA's results is just a nozzle upgrade and tuning the fuel really lean. Still no visual difference.

[RipperXX]

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

I'll quote what I sid: "Since more exhaust gases are wastegated, there's flow out the tail pipe uninhibited which helps cylinder filling." Flow out the tailpipe uninhibited is, simply, what a wastegate does. It's better for an O2 dump. But still ANY wastegate provides a path for exhaust to basically free flow.




Conversion? of what? to running e-85? This is simply an injector upgrade. Or if your injectors are big enough, simply a retune. . .

Running high water flow to mimic NACA's results is just a nozzle upgrade and tuning the fuel really lean. Still no visual difference.

The reason for my comment about about it looking like sin was the vid of the skyline I watched had all kinds of tanks and hoses and shit under the hood. Not like a normal water/meth injection setup at all.

[turboglenn]

Wow! I'm glad to see this thread still going and people still experimenting themselves and adding their data/experiences.

The 16G car and it's owner (drdougless) have moved to tennesee, so i will not get to finish that test (which is why you haven't seen updates from me on this) Also his s16g got so worn that it's spooling really slowly (not making full boost until well after 3500 RPM) So he will have a 20g on it here sometime in the near future. But he still ran a 12.10 ET in the 1/4 mile a few weekends ago down in TN. Then he blew an IC pipe but thought it was somethign else and trailored the car home.

Once i get my 20g on, i will start the experiemnt over with pre-turbo vs. post turbo and maybe even push the no FMIC test a little further since i'll have to make new pipes to accomodate the MHI turbo replacing the garrett.

[turbotalon1g]

I am assuming that you guys saw the english racing threads.
So any update, this does intrigue me a lot. I use E85 here in MN and i would pick up a Meth kit too.