Water injection?

[StreetSleeper34]

I came across some information recently about water injection for our vehicles and how it can really produce some positive gains. I was just wondering how exactly it worked and why it is beneficial. I saw how there are set-ups for both turbo applications as well as the n/a vehicles.

Anybody have any experience with this and actually have results to speak of?

Thanks for the help.

 

[JessesTalon]

I came across some information recently about water injection for our vehicles and how it can really produce some positive gains. I was just wondering how exactly it worked and why it is beneficial. I saw how there are set-ups for both turbo applications as well as the n/a vehicles.

Anybody have any experience with this and actually have results to speak of?

Thanks for the help.

Water injection on a Bone Stock EVO netting up to 70 whp gain on the dyno... very very impressive. I was at awe when I heard this! I'm sure it could work just as affectivly on our cars, but I have no expierence with it so I won't share my theory, check over at Evolutionm.net they have a few threads about it that are pretty informative.

 

[Jeff_Jeske]

I am not sure what kind of HP I picked up but I have a www.snowperformance.net stage two kit. I was able to remove 10% more fuel and add 4* more timing. Running smurf piss (windshield washer fluid) makes the car respond on pump gas like it did with 116 octane.

The only draw back I have is the pump is sort of noisy. I have it mounted in the spare tire area so you can hear it kick on.

I got 15 minutes of WOT action out of the stock bottle. I have since switched to using the stock WW tank and can now go for well over 30 minutes.

Honestly H2O injection is all you need for up to 25PSI. I have been thinking about selling my FMIC and just running a straight pipe from the turbo to the TB and only using liquid intercooling.

 

[ken inn]

there was a guy who did a lot of testing using a merkur xr4ti. using thermocoulples, he measured a 150 deg drop at the t/bdy, which was more temp drop than either air to air or air to liquid intercoolers. water injection will up the octane number by about 6 points. remember, a lot of the extra fuel needed at wot is for cooling. in my own experience, 18 lbs boost, 550cc. without wi, 7100 rpm, knock 3, timing 23, inj duty cycle 87%, afc hi throttle +4 to +7. with wi, 7100 rpm, knock 0, timing 28, idc 76%, afc hi side all 0.
additionally, wi will clean out ALL the deposits in your combustion chamber. spark plugs will look so clean, you will not be able to "read" them any more. get one of those bend-a-lites, and look inside the spark plug hole, the tops of the pistons will look near new, you will be able to read all the casting numbers. valves will be absolutely free of carbon. run a nozzle right after the turbo, put some alcohol in the water mix, and now the entire intake tract gets cleaned, including the inside of the intercooler. put a switch inside the car to activate the wi, and when you are stopped, you can rev the motor a bit, and engage the wi, and the entire intake tract gets cold, completely eliminating any heat soak. water injection is one of the best mods you can do.

 

[gixrman]

^^ Thats not exactly the way to do it. If you run it pre-intercooler you are basiclly cooling the IC to lower that ambient temp. thus reversing the effects of the IC. You want to run the injector nozzle no more than 6" from the throttle body. The main point of WI is to slow the combustion flame, to prevent knock which will allow you to run higher psi. There are many threads on here about WI, do a search.

 

[98TalonTSi]

Not that I take Corky Bell's word as a final and only answer, he has some good points. He believes that water injection isn't a cure-all in turbo applications, a replacement for intercoolers, or used because an intercooler isn't doing it's job.
I'm not saying that there aren't benefits to running this system, but I feel there are other things to spend a few hundred on...

 

[Jeff_Jeske]

Well I am running both a HAHN FMIC and H2O injection. I can tell you that the FMIC helped knock a tad but going to H2O injection above and beyond the FMIC was night and day difference especially during high speed autocrosses.

All FMIC will heat soak if you are at WOT for more than 20 seconds. H2O is instant intercooling that doesn't care how long you are at WOT as long as there is smurf piss in the tank.

I serioulsy think I could remove my FMIC and run only H2O injection with no problem at all.
I have the progressive controller so even at partial throttle and mid boost I am under the protection of H2O injection. That may be the key to its standalone success.

 

[StreetSleeper34]

Okay, this sounds all very intriguing. Keep in mind that I am going to be doing this to my n/a set-up. So boost and knock are really not much of a concern. But I do like the idea of lowering the intake temp, being able to advance the timing and getting a cleaner burn. Can this set-up coincide with a N2O kit as well? I will be eventually going that route as well. I am just looking for as much stuff to do as possible to give me the most gains. Thanks for all the input so far.

 

[ken inn]

^^ Thats not exactly the way to do it. If you run it pre-intercooler you are basiclly cooling the IC to lower that ambient temp. thus reversing the effects of the IC. You want to run the injector nozzle no more than 6" from the throttle body. The main point of WI is to slow the combustion flame, to prevent knock which will allow you to run higher psi. There are many threads on here about WI, do a search.

and, you have had wi system for, how long? i had wi in my bmw 20 years ago, it squirted right into the carb. on the galant, i first ran 1 nozzle right after the turbo, on the stock ic system. it lowered knock, raised timing, and lowered injector duty cycles. depends on what you are looking for. one guy has an eclipse with 4 nozzles, 1 in each runner, pushing 42 lbs of boost. i now have 1 nozzle right before the t/bdy, another in the intake plenum, activated by another hobbs switch, that comes on at 12 lbs. during the summer, i run a 3rd nozzle right after the turbo. i have run a nozzle after the turbo, before the t/bdy, and in the plenum and cannot tell the difference. each has a dramatic effect on eliminating knock, and allowing me to use less fuel at wot. also, i can put the vpc sensor before or after the nozzle, and there is no difference. and i done plenty searching.

 

[f4st]

there was a guy who did a lot of testing using a merkur xr4ti. using thermocoulples, he measured a 150 deg drop at the t/bdy, which was more temp drop than either air to air or air to liquid intercoolers. water injection will up the octane number by about 6 points. remember, a lot of the extra fuel needed at wot is for cooling. in my own experience, 18 lbs boost, 550cc. without wi, 7100 rpm, knock 3, timing 23, inj duty cycle 87%, afc hi throttle +4 to +7. with wi, 7100 rpm, knock 0, timing 28, idc 76%, afc hi side all 0.
additionally, wi will clean out ALL the deposits in your combustion chamber. spark plugs will look so clean, you will not be able to "read" them any more. get one of those bend-a-lites, and look inside the spark plug hole, the tops of the pistons will look near new, you will be able to read all the casting numbers. valves will be absolutely free of carbon. run a nozzle right after the turbo, put some alcohol in the water mix, and now the entire intake tract gets cleaned, including the inside of the intercooler. put a switch inside the car to activate the wi, and when you are stopped, you can rev the motor a bit, and engage the wi, and the entire intake tract gets cold, completely eliminating any heat soak. water injection is one of the best mods you can do.

why on earth would water injection up the octane by 6 points?

 

[97TSIAWD]

why on earth would water injection up the octane by 6 points?

It can't, water has no octane properties. It does suppress knock which is like running race gas. I use www. smcenterprises.com alcohol kit same one Buschur used to get 400 hp out of his car on pump gas. Now that has Octane properties, he says same effects as using 110 leaded fuel. Also, why would you run wi after the turbo? Unless the turbo is setup different spraying after the turbo really isn't doing anything. As for AI, it has been in the buick world for a long time, airplanes as well. Either way AI is about the same price as water and I would say have better effects. Keep searching and you'll find all the answers you need, if your still going the WI check out coolingmist products as from what I have read it is a nice kit. I hope this information helps, check out some other posts about this as well, and if you would like you can pm me and I'll get you my write up on dsmtalk about the smc kit.

 

[kicker91laser]

I am going to run w/i on my 89 colt turbo, which doesn't have an intercooler W/i will help your nt, but I can't really tell you how much. They work really well with forced induction. I would check out coolingmist's kits, or you can make your own. They sell a vacuum switch that is adjustable to use on a nt.

 

[gixrman]

and, you have had wi system for, how long? i had wi in my bmw 20 years ago, it squirted right into the carb.

I've had it year and half and know that if you are cooling the air before the IC your defeating the whole point of it being a "heat exchanger".

As for it working on a N/A car, yes if you are running high compression and are knocking (disieling) because of crappy gas. I would'nt run W/I with NOS since its already cooling the air.

 

[f4st]

It can't, water has no octane properties. It does suppress knock which is like running race gas. I use www. smcenterprises.com alcohol kit same one Buschur used to get 400 hp out of his car on pump gas. Now that has Octane properties, he says same effects as using 110 leaded fuel. Also, why would you run wi after the turbo? Unless the turbo is setup different spraying after the turbo really isn't doing anything. As for AI, it has been in the buick world for a long time, airplanes as well. Either way AI is about the same price as water and I would say have better effects. Keep searching and you'll find all the answers you need, if your still going the WI check out coolingmist products as from what I have read it is a nice kit. I hope this information helps, check out some other posts about this as well, and if you would like you can pm me and I'll get you my write up on dsmtalk about the smc kit.

i have razors kit (need the right nozzle though)off the buick forums but yea pm me that link if you would i just was wondering why that guy said water will increase octane

 

[guitarXgeek]

While a WI nozzle pre-intercooler will in fact reduce the purpose of the intercooler, it WILL help prevent IC heat soak. I think running a single small nozzle pre-intercooler in areas where it gets hot as balls would definitely be beneficial (even more so if you're on the stock sidemount).

Also, I think that one guy meant that WI is comparable to using gas that has an octane rating of 6 points higher. While that's not a very good comparison (especially since the amount of water injected will vary from setup to setup), I understand where he was coming from.

 

[Bohrn]

I have nothing but positive things to say about WI.

Its been used for at least half a century. WW2 fighters on both sides used it for the same reason we use em, and they HAD leaded hi test to play with.

It was used in F1, WRC etc. Buick guys have been doing this for years too.

Get a good pump, a good solenoid and great nozzles. Also make sure you have all your plumbing in order so it doesn't leak or get pinched off etc.

I have been using it for a few months at least. Not sure exactly.

I will say that before I had 43 counts of knock at like 3 psi. I couldn't tune it out no matter what I did. It was ugly!!

As soon as I hooked it up, my knock went down to mid 20's.

I let it clean my combustion chambers and valves etc(and I had MCCC'ed the hell out if it) for a month or so, and the knock went down to 5-8 counts. I then tuned it and got 0 knock.

I will say it as well that its like running race gas on pump. Very nearly anyways.

I have my nozzle as far down the upper pipe as I can almost. The theory behind this is from a site that races Bonneville salt flats bikes. I figure if someone builds these things to go flat out for over a mile at a time, and is successful at it, they know what they are talking about. They say that its best to have the nozzle far away from the intake valves as it gives the setup longer to cool the air. If its too close to the throttle plate it just doesn't get a chance to cool it.

As for the noise, plumb an accumulator in line with the pump, this way it only cycles once every 3 or 4 seconds. And mount it with foam and rubber. Way less intrusive. I have mine just behind the drivers seat in behind the plastic trim panel. I can only hear it if I listen carefully.

 

[doug]

A couple of good current WI threads:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41303
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162760

 

[UPGRADED2G]

would WI benefit those of us still on a T-25 or would it be a waste of time?

 

[coolingmist]

would WI benefit those of us still on a T-25 or would it be a waste of time?

water injection benefits any car. We have found that our kits give HP gains even on stock cars. For instance dodge SRT's are gaining 18 HP to the wheels and advancing timing 10-12 degrees with the water injection on. Beyond the HP gains, it protects agains low octain or bad tank of gas. It steam cleans carbon from the engine and lowers intake temps.

Its a great mod to have, even if you dont want to run a few extra lbs of boost

 

[Defiant]

As above, current WI threads are available.