[RESOLVED] Starter struggling to crank engine *Video Update*

[Artago]

Hi all,

Bit of a unique problem here. Tried searching and failed.

This started a few days ago. Starter was having issues cranking the motor.

Sounded like it was either too weak to turn it over or there was something holding the motor back.

This got worse and worse over the past few days until today when it failed to start.

The starter turned the engine over once and did not have the power to turn it over again.

I tried again and could hear the starter trying to turn the crank over but failing.

Voltage is good 12.5V on new Optima Yellow top. Tested & good.

Suggestions?

Could it just be a dying starter? Has anyone come across this before?

DSM Starter issue - YouTube

DSM starter bench test - YouTube

Thanks,

Tom

[fierosail]

sounds like the starter died on u and u may have the volts but u need the cranking amps still to pull the starter and bat take them to a parts store and have them tested.
when u have it all out check the wires for corrosion and spiting.
Hope this helps

[Talyn]

The simplest solution is to try jump starting it, if that gets it to fire up without excessive drama, then its the battery or alternator. If that doesn't get it going, then its the starter.

[We're on Boost]

See if you can get a battery voltage measurement while the starter is actually trying to crank. If the starter is drawing a lot of current like it should, the voltage at the battery should be down around 11 volts, 10 to 11.5 would be normal I think. If it is less than 10 volts you prob have a bad battery (I know I know it's new), or the starter has a partial short in it. If it is 12 volts or more then the starter is not drawing enough amps - that could be a bad connection somewhere in the wiring, a bad starter, or a bad starter relay. Those voltages are approx.

When I replaced my starter relay (the little relay under the dash) with a jumper wire all of my longstanding weird starter problems went away. Of course I had previously replaced every other component except the ignition switch but I think that lousy relay had been most of my problem all along. Don't even bother trying to test it, just make a jumper wire and put it in there.

The other weird problem I had at one time was the aftermarket parts-store battery cable ends I was using were painted right where you bolt the cable eye to them. I filed the paint off with a flat file, did a real nice careful job getting that contact surface on the lug down to clean metal.

By the way a friend of mine had a yellow top and he had nothing but trouble with it. I guess the red top is supposed to be the way to go. I just buy the NAPA Legend 75 month battery made by Johnson Controls (who also make the red and yellow top). They cost about $110 or so. They are fabulous and last about 10 years. I keep a Ctek US 3300 battery charger/maintainer on it in the garage because I don't drive the car very often. The maintainer keeps it from going flat, which will kill any battery after a few times.
The Ctek units are expensive, but you can save about $20 buying it from Amazon.

[We're on Boost]

^ Yes, if your car jump-starts ok, get a voltage reading on the battery with the engine running at idle. It should be about 13.5 volts, or 14 volts, around in there. If lower then that then your alternator is probably shot.

[Artago]

Thanks for the suggestions all. I appreciate it.

The voltages are:

Car off: 12.5 V
Car on: 13.5 V

I had a quick peak at the battery contacts and they could use a cleaning. Bit of black carbon on the + terminal.

I'll try jumping it. See what happens.

Thanks again, will post update tomorrow.

Tom

[NHerron]

There is a ground cable that bolts to the transmission bellhousing, to the starter. Looking from the passenger side, it is the bolt off the left side of the head. You should be able to feel it, it is a thick cable. When found, back out the bolt and clean up the terminal and the bolt threads.

Or you can test if there is a problem with it with a multimeter. Take one lead and place it on the ground STUD of the battery and the other lead on the starter where there is aluminum/near the bolt and CRANK the engine over and see what the meter reads. There shouldn't much of a voltage drop there (this tests the quality of ground for the starter)

Then there is the positive side of the battery...but I would try the above first

[talon2gbuyer]

Post up a video if you can.. i think i have a similar problem :/

[DashLaflash]

Originally Posted by NHerron

There is a ground cable that bolts to the transmission bellhousing, to the starter. Looking from the passenger side, it is the bolt off the left side of the head. You should be able to feel it, it is a thick cable. When found, back out the bolt and clean up the terminal and the bolt threads.

Or you can test if there is a problem with it with a multimeter. Take one lead and place it on the ground STUD of the battery and the other lead on the starter where there is aluminum/near the bolt and CRANK the engine over and see what the meter reads. There shouldn't much of a voltage drop there (this tests the quality of ground for the starter)

Then there is the positive side of the battery...but I would try the above first

Can you post a pic of how this ground is mounted? Mine goes from the negative terminal of the battery to the lower bolt on the starter and it's contacting the transmission. I replaced the cable with a new one from autozone as well as a new chassis ground. My car has always required a lot of cranking to start, and it seems slower than it should be. I had autozone test both the starter and battery and they are good, so I think I have a ground connected wrong. Its either a bad ground or I have a bad starter relay/switch like another person mentioned.

[boost97gst]

Originally Posted by NHerron

There is a ground cable that bolts to the transmission bellhousing, to the starter. Looking from the passenger side, it is the bolt off the left side of the head. You should be able to feel it, it is a thick cable. When found, back out the bolt and clean up the terminal and the bolt threads.

Or you can test if there is a problem with it with a multimeter. Take one lead and place it on the ground STUD of the battery and the other lead on the starter where there is aluminum/near the bolt and CRANK the engine over and see what the meter reads. There shouldn't much of a voltage drop there (this tests the quality of ground for the starter)

Then there is the positive side of the battery...but I would try the above first

Yessssir, thats most likely the problem: bad ground.
take an ohm meter and ring from chassis to engine, chassis to tranny, and any ground you can see in there. I had the same problem after a clutch swap. Checked out and it was 55 Ohms between firewall and tranny, and remember, that is like a brick wall when you start applying current. It should only be a couple ohms

[NHerron]

Originally Posted by DashLaflash

Can you post a pic of how this ground is mounted? Mine goes from the negative terminal of the battery to the lower bolt on the starter and it's contacting the transmission. I replaced the cable with a new one from autozone as well as a new chassis ground. My car has always required a lot of cranking to start, and it seems slower than it should be. I had autozone test both the starter and battery and they are good, so I think I have a ground connected wrong. Its either a bad ground or I have a bad starter relay/switch like another person mentioned.

This pic is from the parts program and verified, at least on my car it's exactly the same.

Do you have a multimeter (AKA DVOM, voltmeter, etc)
Just do some voltage drop tests to see if there is excess resistance

[We're on Boost]

Originally Posted by Artago

The voltages are:
Car off: 12.5 V
Car on: 13.5 V

That sounds good. 13.5 volts with car running is what mine measures on a new (maybe reman I don't remember now) alternator from NAPA, their most expensive one. Other car makes are usually 14 volts, but the DSMs and Jeeps I've messed with measure 13.5 volts. So anyway your alternator is probably ok unless it craps out under heavy load, which you would have to have measured by a shop unless somebody can give a good suggestion how to do it. 12.5 should be a good normal for the battery when engine is off. But the only real way to check a battery is with a hydrometer, you check the battery acid density in each cell. I don't know if you can do that with those red top and yellow top batteries.

For DashLaFlash on the slow cranking speed and long crank to start:
My car has always and still does sound like it has a slow cranking speed. I have logs that show rpm during cranking if you are interested. I've noticed when you look starters up for these cars on NAPA, they list 1KW starters as standard, but you can also get a 1.4 (I think) KW starter. I've always wondered if this would make it crank faster, but my new starter is the regular 1KW starter and it is actually new, not a reman.
Long cranks to start - yep if that is your engine bay on your profile page showing your fuel pressure regulator on the firewall - that is at least part of the reason. My car had the stock regulator in the stock position and the crank time was normal. Then when I put my Fuel Lab regulator in, I mounted it to the firewall just about where yours is. All of a sudden, crank times on a cold start were a couple seconds longer. It's that long hose connecting the end of the fuel rail to the FPR, takes a while to fill it up. That's my theory anyway. Another thought, maybe the anti-backflow valve in the Walbro isn't as good as stock?

Artago, if you run out of connections to check, make a jumper wire, take out the starter relay, put in that jumper, and leave it there forever and ever amen. I don't know where it is on the 2g but it's probably not too hard to get to. It has 4 legs. You can use your meter to figure out which 2 go to the relay coil and which 2 go to the switching contacts. When your meter leads are connecting the 2 that go to the relay coil your meter will show a resistance of about 90 ohms. It's the other 2 that you want to jumper to each other in the socket on the car.
Again, I don't know about the 2g, but on the 1g, the lugs you want are 1/4" wide male crimp-on spade lugs (they are flat) for 16 to 14 gage wire, to put on each end of your little jumper wire which can be 3 or 4 inches of 16 gage or 14 gage insulated wire. The spade lugs I'm talking about are usually called "Quick Disconnects" and you can buy them at a place like Radio Shack.

[Artago]

Hi all, here's a video of the starter in action.

Also, had the battery was tested at a shop, it's 100%.

(same video as above)

DSM Starter issue - YouTube

[Artago]

Update: Got the starter out of the car. Anyone have a good link or diagram on how to test a starter?

[boost97gst]

almost sounds like its spinning and not engaging the flywheel. Hard to tell. But, i gotta say again, check grounds. Your battery can be the size of a house and it wont matter if the connections are high resistance.

[Artago]

Originally Posted by boost97gst

almost sounds like its spinning and not engaging the flywheel. Hard to tell. But, i gotta say again, check grounds. Your battery can be the size of a house and it wont matter if the connections are high resistance.

That's what I'm thinking. I removed it to bench test it but I'm not sure I'm doing it right because nothing happens.

I'm pretty sure I know what's positive and negative but the starter is not responding so I'd like to verify my test method.

[boost97gst]

Well did the solenoid pop out and did it start spinning when you tested it? Maybe the solenoids not making the gear protrude outward but its still spinning. That would be an exact fit for your problem.
Mine has a red cover and that nut is constant 12v, the other nut has no straps coming off it. Then theres a small clip that fits on a spade connector. It can be grounded from the starter bolt-neg terminal/chassis ground. I have mine going to firewall cause my battery is relocated. Get a vidoe of someone holding the starter while you crank it. That will tell you everything.

[Artago]

I connected + to the bolt under the red cover (12V+ constant) and - to the other bolt (right next to it) I left the spade connector un-connected. Nothing happened.

Edit: Pretty sure it's done. Was going to order the cheapest one from RockAuto.
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1376821

Or should I get the new AC Delco one?

[NHerron]

+12V to under the red cover, GROUND goes to the aluminum, where the bolt threads in. Then take a small piece of wire from a +12V source to the small spade connector on top of solenoid. You might want to hold the starter with your foot in case it tries to spin away from you.

If the starter was originally at least trying to crank the engine, the starter will work being bench tested. How did the cables look while unbolting everything? Any small indication of corrosion ANYWHERE? Did the cables get hot when cranking the engine?

[Artago]

Seems a bit slow to wind up

DSM starter bench test - YouTube

So it works on the bench. Question is, why does it not work on the car?

[bcjjones]

Might be a stupid question, as i've only removed my starter a few times, but is it possible to install the starter upside down?

As in facing away from the flywheel?

[boost97gst]

Its impossible. The reason it doesnt work in the car is bad connection. MAYBE the motor is worn and its failing under load but i highly doubt that.

[Artago]

Originally Posted by boost97gst

Its impossible. The reason it doesnt work in the car is bad connection. MAYBE the motor is worn and its failing under load but i highly doubt that.

Ok, I'll clean the contacts and re-install it. Hopefully that's it. But it's worked without a problem for years now so it's strange to have it fail all of a sudden. Also, in the first video you can clearly hear it spinning... it just does not engage.

I guess the simplest thing to do now it to put it back and see what happens.

[NHerron]

It takes a second for the starter pinion to spin up when it free wheels (inertia), but if you still have doubts take it to Napa and see if they can do an amp draw test against the specs.

We can help better if you answer questions

[boost97gst]

yup, clean the actual starter where it mates to the tranny and where the bolt goes through tranny into the starter. Run ya some 4G welding wire from that bolt to the neg terminal(if ## battery is up front). You want the starter housing itself, even uder load, to see as little resistance as possible.

[We're on Boost]

Well, on the bench it looks ok, the pinion gear throws out nice and hard. In the car it sounds like maybe the starter drive is slipping. In other words, the pinion might be engaging with the flywheel but then the "starter drive" or "Bendix starter drive" as it is sometimes called, slips, instead of turning the pinion (and the engine). The starter drive is an assembly that includes the pinion gear, and it would be replaced with a new drive assembly in any good starter rebuild. Still could be something else though. Good videos!

[Artago]

Originally Posted by We're on Boost

Well, on the bench it looks ok, the pinion gear throws out nice and hard. In the car it sounds like maybe the starter drive is slipping. In other words, the pinion might be engaging with the flywheel but then the "starter drive" or "Bendix starter drive" as [COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]it is sometimes called, slips, instead of turning the pinion (and the engine).[/COLOR] The starter drive is an assembly that includes the pinion gear, and it would be replaced with a new drive assembly in any good starter rebuild. Still could be something else though. Good videos!

This is what I was thinking. In the first video you can hear the gear throw out and the start motor spinning but the engine doesn't crank. It sounds like it's just slipping.

I was going to put it back in the car and test it but now I'm reconsidering that thought because of the extra work involved in putting it all back together.

Thoughts?

[xxNocturnalxx]

You can take the cables to the shop and have them tested for resistance as well. Something I just did last week because I'm having a similar issue with a brand new battery and a OEM starter that tested better than the autozone starters on the shelf. So the last thing to check at least for me is the signal wire. The car has an alarm system and I'm thinking it is taking too much voltage from the signal wire if thats even possible but it's my next step anyway. Do you have an alarm system?

While your trying to crank you can feel around all of the grounds for heat, any heat should mean a bad ground or wire.

[damageinc0318]

Have you pulled your plugs and tried hand cranking over your motor , I had similar problem and it was my oil pump seizing up . I would check to see if you are having engine problems too

[95talongirl]

With the bench teest results, I'd be willing to bet its grounding issue, as well. My old Talon's main starter cables were extremely corroded, and it would do the same thing yours is; kicking the starter out but then "slipping." Look for the greenish-colored copper on the wires. If you spot any green, clean it up, but also make sure to check the wire at different spots to see if the corrosion extended up into the wire. I ended up having to replace the main ground wire from the battery to the started because the corrosion extended up over half the length of the wire! Once the new ground was in place, it started right up with no hiccups.