[RESOLVED] Battle!...Honda or 2g eclipse

mickey · 06-30-2012, 09:58 PM

This is very common conversation and the biggest argument from the past and even now. Dont be against me, im just telling you what people say to me. I live in new haven which is "Honda town". Most people say they prefer Honda because it lighter and take off quicker. They say eclipse is slow because it heavy, bigger motor with low power and etc w.e they say. I don't listen to them because they get me mad once a while. So let have a battle conversation here. I'm only talking about between 91-98 Honda civic vtec or 2g eclipse 420a.

GsxAZman · 06-30-2012, 10:14 PM

Im sure a Honda. Its like a honda racing a fatter version of a neon..

Spoolin4Ever · 06-30-2012, 10:16 PM

I see it's resolved so you won, right? lol

I also see a 1998 Civic EX only puts out 127 HP and it's a sedan so it probably weighs a little more than your DSM.

The lower models of civic was 106 HP.

So I guess you should beat them both! Now if they have modded it or done a motor swap who knows right? Depends on what they have in it.

In the meantime you should turbo swap your 420A for a 6 Bolt!

MikeSD · 06-30-2012, 10:21 PM

a vote between a civic and a NT 2g?

campos_racing · 06-30-2012, 10:27 PM

Exactly, why be like the rest, I mean if they are making engine swaps happen, why cant you? I mean you will just keep there mouth shut with a 6 bolt, just wait till there jaws drop when that turbo starts spooling. Just my 2 cents here!

gusu · 06-30-2012, 10:48 PM

I don't argue with Honda guys. Most are kids just getting into cars. Most think a exhaust, cam gears, underdrive pulleys, a chip, b18-b20 swap, intake and headers is going to make their car fast. The truth is the only useful thing they did was swap a higher displacement more performance oriented motor in their car. The rest helps but barely since the car isn't achieveing that much higher vacuum pressure to even need to up the exhaust flow.

But for the most part they put grow their small engines and either trade up for faster car or if they are in the very low minority they actually turbo it. Even the turbo civics I see make near stock dsm power levels as most don't upgrade internals, for several reasons. They don't know how, they can't afford it, or they are satisfied at 200-230 horse power at the crank. I know kids only running 5-6 PSI on turbos you'd see on a turbo scooter.

Trying to argue with them isn't going to get you anywhere. They don't understand the significance of torque yet most likely, and don't get that with a factory boosted car you can gain a significant amount of horse power by barely any modifications when compared to a naturally aspirated motor.

A factory 2g NT vs a Civic hatch though. I'd rather the Civic because I prefer their handling and the gas mileage. However the d15-d16 can make a few more ponies with simple tuning and changing the redline. I believe claims of 15hp is common, I doubt that's at the wheels but with timing, who knows.

They are both good platforms in their own way. You could always get a NA spyder and have a 2.4l to go agaisnt their most common B20, however I think na vs na the B20 would win.

DSMnOOb00 · 06-30-2012, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by campos_racing

Exactly, why be like the rest, I mean if they are making engine swaps happen, why cant you? I mean you will just keep there mouth shut with a 6 bolt, just wait till there jaws drop when that turbo starts spooling. Just my 2 cents here!

1+! Swap it out!

bryanwheat · 06-30-2012, 10:52 PM

There are too many factors, and too many models of cars to just say honda vs 2g n/t. When you throw in the possibilities for engine swaps the civics usually has the edge. A base model civic hatch with a stock h22 would have you running low 13's high 12's with a good driver and traction. A stock civic with the d16 y7/y8 would probably run neck and neck with a stock 2g n/t. They have less power, but weigh less also.

4g63tc · 06-30-2012, 11:10 PM

A 1999 miata would own them both.

Spoolin4Ever · 06-30-2012, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4g63tc

A 1999 miata would own them both.

Not if it had crankwalk. lol

AK Maniak · 07-01-2012, 12:07 AM

Do you really want to be seen driving a Honda? Winning a race in a Honda is like winning the special Olympics, you may have won but you're still retarded.

WES_393 · 07-01-2012, 12:46 AM

The thing is, Honda's can indeed be fast in naturally aspirated form. Take a K20A (which makes more WHP than a turbo DSM bone stock), put some basic mods on it, throw it in an extremely light FWD Honda with slicks, and enjoy some impressive 1/4 times.

The problems with the 420a DSM compared to that: It's in a very heavy car, it doesn't make much HP at all in stock form, and is very limited in naturally aspirated form. I believe the record is around 230-240hp. So less power, more weight, and not much you can do about it.

Trust me, I dislike Honda's very much for many reasons. But when it comes to NA vs NA, the numbers just aren't in your favor. Either boost your engine or buy a turbo DSM. Until then, you won't be pulling on very many Honda's.

Spoolin4Ever · 07-01-2012, 01:02 AM

Only race against bone stock Honda's!

1998 Honda Civic

Quick Facts

Engine: 106 - 127 horsepower
Seating: 5 passengers
Driving Range: 333 - 524 miles

Drive: Front-Wheel Drive
Cargo Capacity: 11.9 - 13.4 cu. ft.

honda_burner · 07-01-2012, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WES_393

The thing is, Honda's can indeed be fast in naturally aspirated form. Take a K20A (which makes more WHP than a turbo DSM bone stock), put some basic mods on it, throw it in an extremely light FWD Honda with slicks, and enjoy some impressive 1/4 times.

This is very true but now your talking about different eras. You can't compare a 97 car that had lower standards to meet from the factory to a 2006 car (which is what the k motor comes out of originally, the rsx) that had to keep up with cars like the evo and Sti to keep sales up. And if your talking motor swaps than that throws a whole other spin on it too because he can swap in the 2.4 and still be better off.

con57 · 07-01-2012, 07:00 AM

ide go with a honda over a 420a. but turbo 4g63 done right will be deffinantly a competitor for all hondas h,b,even turbo k series. but if i had to choose a honda is a lil more reliable and can creat great numbers. Im a honda and a dsm guy and i love them both!!! but i do own a 95 gsx if that tells you anything.

bryanwheat · 07-01-2012, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by honda_burner

This is very true but now your talking about different eras. You can't compare a 97 car that had lower standards to meet from the factory to a 2006 car (which is what the k motor comes out of originally, the rsx) that had to keep up with cars like the evo and Sti to keep sales up. And if your talking motor swaps than that throws a whole other spin on it too because he can swap in the 2.4 and still be better off.

So are you saying that a 2g with a 2.4 n/a will be faster than a civic with a k20? Do you realize that there are guys running 10's with naturally aspirated k series engines?

donniekak · 07-01-2012, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryanwheat

So are you saying that a 2g with a 2.4 n/a will be faster than a civic with a k20? Do you realize that there are guys running 10's with naturally aspirated k series engines?

People are running 10's in 1gs with a 16g, without gutting the car. The money that goes into a 300hp na 4cylinder engine dwarfs what it takes to build a 500hp 4g63.

I always make fun of the Honda swap mentality. For the money they spend to install an engine with 50-80 more hp, they could have built a 400 hp setup if they built, and turboed what they already had.

honda_burner · 07-01-2012, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryanwheat

So are you saying that a 2g with a 2.4 n/a will be faster than a civic with a k20? Do you realize that there are guys running 10's with naturally aspirated k series engines?

At that point its not even a k motor anymore its so modified but no that's not what I was saying. I was just trying to say a k motor vs a 420a isn't fair because its newer. By swapping in the 2.4 he just gave himself that 20-30 hp jump honda guys use to justify doing motor swaps. That's kinda what I was trying to get at.

mustracetsi · 07-01-2012, 07:46 AM

i've owned both civic 94 bubble,coupe and eclipse and talon 420a. i love both but love dsm thats why i own a 97 awd tsi now. yeah theres alot of toss and turns on this subject. is all about money in and mind of the creator you may say. one civics are like nokia now basically the iphone. what i mean they have everything and anything for the car. parts are cheaper and easy to optain since is such a high media car. meaning so many out there because of the price and many that get to salve yards and junks yard and impounds for all reasons. they seam lighter plus but remember eclipse was designed from a truck base frame you can notice that a civic can easily do a u turn on a small street while we got do k turns.
the cars stock, one our looks better, two my stock talon ripped so many civics stock. only thing they got is vtec with like a little boost and only kicks in when you redline. the more oil preasure build up the more kick the vtec gives thats why they chip the ecu to no rev limit or increase the revline, but like i said before earlier is all about money and your buget. civic motors are cheap you got a 1.6 sohc even 1.6 doch now are practally given out. talking 200 dollars out the junk yard. 700 for a b20 motor from japan with low miles. and the fact that really not that much to modifaction is needed to swap motors, trans, breaks, interior. honda is the interchangable car. from 89 to now anything motor,trans related,break rims can all be used on any models betweeen with cheap modifications. they make motor mount brackets and all supporting parts for the swap that a ten year can do on its own. my friend is founder of certified racing in new jersey and he does everything and anything with these cars. 10s all motor all day on his car. my civic coupe i had was stock 1.6 dohc with rc 550cc injectors and turbo spoiling 10 pounds. cars only ran 16s on the track. 420a parts are hard to find and the parts do cost more. think about it civic is like mcdonals and dsm are kfc lol. but the ride and feel is better on 420a than civic in my opinion. my 420a had just bolt ons like full exhuast, msd coils, ngk plugs, wires, clutch, performance radiator hoses ect. drop to 1 inch of the floor on 18 inch rims,blitz kit and still ran harder than some hondas. i raced my against my friends gst at the time and he only manage to leave me two car lenghts wich to me is not bad for a 420a eclipse vs a 14 lb of boost gst.

in the end is money and your preference. you can get alot more done faster and cheaper with civic. or build and nice dsm that holds value.
but remeber stock turbo model eclipse or talon beat most these hondas unless the honda heavy moded. tho i dont advise street race. if you are battling on highway and some honda trying give you a run most than likely you win. one our turbo help us two cops would pull the honda first. a honda that can run good is going be one thats no where near quiet.

GSTurbo1 · 07-01-2012, 08:22 AM

I own a 98 420 on 10 lbs. of boost and it is quick... but really really good on gas when I take it easy. However, It has had a lot of money dropped into it to get it here. I feel like either car non turbo'd will take a lot of money to get it where you want. Just buy something that already has the work done to it.

bryanwheat · 07-01-2012, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by honda_burner

At that point its not even a k motor anymore its so modified but no that's not what I was saying. I was just trying to say a k motor vs a 420a isn't fair because its newer. By swapping in the 2.4 he just gave himself that 20-30 hp jump honda guys use to justify doing motor swaps. That's kinda what I was trying to get at.

Going from a d15 to a k20a is a lot more than a 20-30 horsepower jump. The jdm versions can have 240 to 260 horsepower. The d15 is around 103 horsepower. Just a basic jdm k20 swap will net you an additional 137-157 horsepower over stock. That is just bolting the engine in and no more. Who cares what years the engine is from, honda's have the advantage there because there is so much support for engine swaps. I am as big of a dsm guy as anyone, but i would much rather have a clean sixth gen civic with a basic h22a or k20 swap over any 420a car regardless of whether or not it is boosted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by donniekak

People are running 10's in 1gs with a 16g, without gutting the car. The money that goes into a 300hp na 4cylinder engine dwarfs what it takes to build a 500hp 4g63.

I always make fun of the Honda swap mentality. For the money they spend to install an engine with 50-80 more hp, they could have built a 400 hp setup if they built, and turboed what they already had.

Of coarse, you are comparing a turbocharged engine to naturally aspirated engines. It isn't that expensive to do engine swaps on honda's. A basic mount kit is around 100-150 bucks and most everything else is interchangeable. I would take a turbo dsm over any honda (other than an s2000) any day, but as far as non turbo cars i would own a honda hands down. You will have a faster car for cheaper every time.

TSIturbo91 · 07-01-2012, 09:31 AM

I'd say its more gratifying to own a DSM over a Honda. I had a 1991 civic hatchback and it was fun. But in the sense of a bicycle ride on a sunny day is fun vs. a motorcycle ride on a sunny day is. The Honda like a bicycle is more composed and can be very fun. However DSM being more like a motorcycle is just more fun because it's just faster.

Now if we talk about modding then it's like a bike and motorcycle being in a race. The bike can cut corners and doesn't need the same kinda coin to make it light and quick. While the motorcycle requires you to stay on the road and must follow a more structured path of upgrades.

Anyway I liked my Honda and I noticed better performance from simple upgrades, I can't say that a "performance" intake yielded 15hp but for the 20 bucks I spent I felt I got my money's worth. Unlike spends 20 bucks on my DSM were basically something is just more shiny now. Over all honda has its place grooming people for the DSM life. But if they are brand loyal they have the option making them just as great as any DSM.

When I get into a bench race with someone though I say the same thing to everyone. Put up, or shut up.

honda_burner · 07-01-2012, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryanwheat

Going from a d15 to a k20a is a lot more than a 20-30 horsepower jump. The jdm versions can have 240 to 260 horsepower. The d15 is around 103 horsepower. Just a basic jdm k20 swap will net you an additional 137-157 horsepower over stock. That is just bolting the engine in and no more. Who cares what years the engine is from, honda's have the advantage there because there is so much support for engine swaps. I am as big of a dsm guy as anyone, but i would much rather have a clean sixth gen civic with a basic h22a or k20 swap over any 420a car regardless of whether or not it is boosted.

Well if we are bringing motor swaps into it why not just compare a 1g with a hx35, link, blah blah blah. Same thing right? Motor swaps weren't part of the original debate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryanwheat

It isn't that expensive to do engine swaps on honda's.

Guess again. My boss is doing a k swap in his hatch and just spent 1800 on the engine alone. He still needs k.sport mounts, a trans, an ecu and harnesses.

93_tsi_fwd · 07-01-2012, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by honda_burner

At that point its not even a k motor anymore its so modified but no that's not what I was saying. I was just trying to say a k motor vs a 420a isn't fair because its newer. By swapping in the 2.4 he just gave himself that 20-30 hp jump honda guys use to justify doing motor swaps. That's kinda what I was trying to get at.

So your saying a built 4g63 aint even a 4g63 anymore since its fully modified? Its basically the same concept.

Id rather own a honda over a NT dsm any day.

honda_burner · 07-01-2012, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 93_tsi_fwd

So your saying a built 4g63 aint even a 4g63 anymore since its fully modified? Its basically the same concept.

Id rather own a honda over a NT dsm any day.

For the sake of this argument yes. That's what im saying. Its like calling a tube chassis funny car a 2g because it has a fiberglass body on it that looks like a 2g. The beginning of the argument was about nt eclipse vs stock civic. Then drag k motors get brought into the equation? Not even a comparison. That's why I made that statement. Because it is a k motor but at the same time it's not. It doesn't have the factory desired specs.

spyderdrifter · 07-01-2012, 09:54 AM

I for one, am not a fan of Hondas. I have owned one at one time, and it was a decent car on gas. But that was the end of it. It was a 1990 Acura Integra GS, coupe, 5-spd, etc... It sucked on power, and I really never had the amount of fun driving it as I have with the 4 DSMs I've owed. My first DSM was a N/T Talon. I had way more fun driving it than I did the integra, even if the integra was a lot lighter. Since then, I've had 3 turbo DSMs and I'll never have quite the amount of fun driving another car, as I have with these. Sure they may be problematic, and the engines are sensitive to changes, but that's half the fun if you really love them as most of us do. Out of all those 'affordable' tuner cars from the '90s, DSMs were the only ones that the option to be turbo'd and awd from the factory, never had a 4-dr version, and even had a drop top. Not to mention they even look sporty unlike the others from Honda. There's my opinion.

honda_burner · 07-01-2012, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spyderdrifter

I for one, am not a fan of Hondas. I have owned one at one time, and it was a decent car on gas. But that was the end of it. It was a 1990 Acura Integra GS, coupe, 5-spd, etc... It sucked on power, and I really never had the amount of fun driving it as I have with the 4 DSMs I've owed. My first DSM was a N/T Talon. I had way more fun driving it than I did the integra, even if the integra was a lot lighter. Since then, I've had 3 turbo DSMs and I'll never have quite the amount of fun driving another car, as I have with these. Sure they may be problematic, and the engines are sensitive to changes, but that's ahlf the fun if you really love them as most of us do. Out of all those 'affordable' tuner cars from the '90s, DSMs were the only ones that the option to be turbo'd and awd from the factory, never had a 4-dr version, and even had a drop top. Not to mention they even look sporty unlike the others from Honda. There's my opinion.

Everything you just said sums everything i love about my car up in a nutshell!

91stocker · 07-01-2012, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryanwheat

It isn't that expensive to do engine swaps on honda's. A basic mount kit is around 100-150 bucks and most everything else is interchangeable.

Yea but the problem isnt just the custom mounts, the motor themselves run up to $5k, engine and lsd trans. Then the engine harness, axles, tuner. Unless you fell into a donor car for dirt cheap it realistically could run as high $10k for the swap. Theres a massive amount of little details that add up in a hurry too.

Most of the honda sites even list it from 6-10k depending on how "right" you want to do it. It has been a few years since i paid any attention to them though.

I swapped a b series into a crx and that wasnt any fun. The honda guys make the swaps sound so easy. Like its bolt in and go. Far from it haha

spyderdrifter · 07-01-2012, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by honda_burner

Everything you just said sums everything i love about my car up in a nutshell!

AMEN!!!

In addition to what I said earlier, all those DSM inspired demotivational pictures, that most have no doubt seen, do have some truth to them. DSMs weed out the weak. Anyone can build a civic or integra be cause they're so easy to build, cheap to build, and everyones got one so the info is bountiful on how to do it. That's not the case with our DSMs. It takes patience, determination, and a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to have a DSM rise above the others, but it's a much more satisfying feeling in the end, to be able to say you built what most could only dream of building.

l8vr14dsm95 · 07-01-2012, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickey

This is very common conversation and the biggest argument from the past and even now. Dont be against me, im just telling you what people say to me. I live in new haven which is "Honda town". Most people say they prefer Honda because it lighter and take off quicker. They say eclipse is slow because it heavy, bigger motor with low power and etc w.e they say. I don't listen to them because they get me mad once a while. So let have a battle conversation here. I'm only talking about between 91-98 Honda civic vtec or 2g eclipse 420a.

haha i know how you feel, we dont have to many dsmers in new haven the town is full of hondas. if i were you i would stick with the 2g all these honda around town inspire me to different.