272/264 or 264/272

[associator]

I have done some looking around at cam set ups and I think that what I am looking to get is a combo set of the 264 and 272 cams. I see that the 264 gives a good bottom end and the 272 gives me the top end and I'm not trying to argue the benefits of running a direct set of either. I have been looking to see what the difference is between a larger intake vs exhaust cam or vice versa but I cant seem to find anything solid every discussion I was able to find seems to be sidetracked before a real answer comes out. Can any one give me some insight to this?

Also can a mod please let me know why I still can only post in the newbie section?

 

[Demon33]

Here is some information for you- AMS Infamous DSM Camshaft test | HKS | Crower| Jun | Web | Eagle Talon | 4g63 Cams.
While I can't comment on a longer duration intake cam with a shorter duration exhaust cam, I can say that the HKS 264 intake/272 exhaust setup I have works great. Much better mid and top end than the stock cams without any noticeable decrease in low end torque. This is with an e316g and cyclone intake in my daily driver. If you're using a bigger turbo, the larger cams would probably be better for you.

 

[e85_4g63]

What do you plan to use your car for the most? How much power do you want to make?

Going off your profile, I wouldn't bother with anything less then the 272/272 combo.

 

[IceMinion]

I don't know why you are avoiding just going 272/272. Have you had a bad experience in the past? Just because you may have heard of someone with idling issues with 272 cams doesnt mean that the cams are to blame.

Just because some fool knows how to buy and install cams doesn't mean they know a thing about car maintenance. If you have a car with a fried IAC circuit, vacuum leaks, worn spark plugs...adding 272's to it will indeed give it idling issues.

A properly maintained DSM with 272 idles great and has a great top end, if you want idling issues there are 280 grind cams or 288 grind cams.

I had 280's and the car still idled correctly.

 

[associator]

Demon33: I have seen this before but thank you for posting it again I did trying finding it when I wrote this just to reference but I came up short.

e85_4G63: I am trying to build the car as a fun daily driver with a few auto-x races a year as well. The reason that I am looking for a combo set up is that I want to pull some better mid range Tq as well as a slightly faster spool than going with the straight 272 cam set up. the real question I would like to get an answer to is the difference between larger intake vs exhaust.

I am looking mainly to find what the spool difference is between the 2 options as well as which one gives better top end power and which gives better mid range power. If some one can provide graphs that would be great but even some personal experience would be good as well. I think that most of us can discern that the 262/264 will spool faster and have better low range and that the 272/272 will spool a little slower with better high range and a hybrid would be between these 2 in spool and have more mid than both. However I would like to know the difference between the 2 combos.

And an upside to this answer is that people trying to find a middle ground from the 272 and 280 may be able to use this to consider doing a combo 272 280 if they know what the result would be.

Ice: You make a good point. If you know how to build a car properly you can get even 288 cams to idle well. on the flip side if your an idiot you can make a car idle like crap without really adding anything. I am not looking at this from an idle issue. I am looking to make good street power for passing and driving I have no interest in making a car that is all about top end power so I am trying to match and mix my mods to make good mid range.

 

[e85_4g63]

You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 264/272 setup vs a 272/272 setup on a PROPERLY setup car. I GUARANTEE IT. Of course, people just half A$$ stuff with DSM's and wonder why there cars don't run for crap. If you install, degree, and tune the car correctly, you'll love the 272/272 combo (especially with your 16g!). Keep in mind though that all 272's aren't equal.

Brain Crower 272's are no where near Kelford 272's, so buyer beware!

 

[associator]

Ok so if you want to stick to this 272 only idea why do you say that this is superior to a combo set up? A combo set up will give me more low end power which is the entire reason why I am looking for a combo as well as better spool. And using cam gears to make the 272's idle like the combo and have better mid range can also be done on a combo set up to gain me more mid range and more spool on top of what they already have over the straight 272 cams

 

[IceMinion]

Trying to improve the "midrange" of the 4G63 is very tricky, not many have accomplished this because of how small our engine displacement is.

Look at it this way, the performance loss in the "midrange" of the 272 is offset by gains "higher up" 4k-9k (you are getting better springs right? if so: rev to 9k).

a 2.0L engine at 7.8:1 compression ratio will suck midrange....cams have very little affect here.

If you were to approach me and ask how to drastically improve torque in the low end I would answer with the following:
-stroker.
-small turbo.
-sequential turbo.
-juice.
-supercharger.
-higher compression pistons.

just start looking at people's dyno graphs, theres a "dead zone" in the midrange that every body seems to have.

You can do anything, but when it comes to the $300 you are going to spend on these cams? just buy the 272's.

 

[e85_4g63]

Ok so if you want to stick to this 272 only idea why do you say that this is superior to a combo set up? A combo set up will give me more low end power which is the entire reason why I am looking for a combo as well as better spool. And using cam gears to make the 272's idle like the combo and have better mid range can also be done on a combo set up to gain me more mid range and more spool on top of what they already have over the straight 272 cams

You use adjustable cam gears to put the power band where you want it, to an extent. Your profile says your on a 16g, so you already are starting your power band a little later in the RPM range. The only reason to get cams now is to improve the 4K to 7K range of the motor. Only other thing you can do at this point is a bump in compression or stroker motor. Your wasting your money on the 264/272 combo man, don't do it. Also, consider the GSC s1 cams... If your going to seriously use the 264 cam, you might as well spend money on something other then then cams. Race gas and some more timing down low will also help.

 

[Sirnixalot]

i have not been able to find out much information on the 272 intake and 264 exhaust setup.

It cant be worse than stock but i wonder if i would be better off getting an FP2 exhaust cam or maybe even a 280* exhaust cam to go with my 2.3.

 

[clipto]

All I know back the days alot people would run 272/264 setup now everyone switched to 264/272,not sure the reason behind this.I would just stick with 272/272 setup.

 

[associator]

The motor I am doing this on has 9.0:1 compression so it will have decent low end power. You are correct the lack of displacement will make real American style low end Tq impossible but that is not what I am after. I am looking for power in my normal driving range from lets say 2.5k to 5k. I know that nothing is really designed to make power here however it is an attempt. 272 will give me decent low end but not quite what I am looking for. I have spent a lot of time looking at 264 272 280 etc. and what I settled on wanting is a combo. The point of this thread was not to argue the advantages of a combo vs a straight it was only to get information for people to reference when looking into what they want to run on their own cars so if we can please stay on topic. I do appreciate the input of what you would recommend however I have found what I am looking for after a lot of searching and comparing.

 

[e85_4g63]

Another choice you have to is to have a set of cams made to your spec's. But I'd advise against that at this point...

 

[Demon33]

I am looking for power in my normal driving range from lets say 2.5k to 5k. I know that nothing is really designed to make power here however it is an attempt. 272 will give me decent low end but not quite what I am looking for.

My goals were very similar to yours in terms of torque in my normal driving rpm range of 2.5k to 6k. I installed adjustable cam gears and simply degreed the cams (with degree wheel, solid lifter, and dial indicator) to the cam card specs. In hindsight, I could simply have dropped in the HKS cams using the stock gears because they were within 1 degree of specs. Anyway, I added a cyclone intake with vacuum canister and set ECMLink to actuate it at 4200 rpm. There is a noticeable increased in off boost and midrange torque. It's not insane, but noticeable. Top end is the same as the stock 1g intake manifold. Maybe something for you to consider... Good luck.

 

[associator]

It might be but at the moment I am looking more for an answer to my question. So if there is anyone out there (and I have to assume that there is) with experience or knowledge of what the difference is between big cam on intake and big cam on exhaust can you please chime in with some information

 

[agentorange313]

It might be but at the moment I am looking more for an answer to my question. So if there is anyone out there (and I have to assume that there is) with experience or knowledge of what the difference is between big cam on intake and big cam on exhaust can you please chime in with some information

I would start by reading up on cams:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/221200-cam-basics.html

This will help you understand why people use larger cams for exhaust and/or intake.

People used to run 272/264 back in the day because it was used by Delta and got great results claiming that this combo will help with the powerband. The 264 cams on the exhaust side keep the velocity the exhaust gases high and creates a wider powerband. It helps with small turbos a 2g heads, since they have smaller ports.

It really depends on what turbo you are running.

 

[brian9397gsx]

I've got gsc s2 cams they are 274, duration idles great and really haven't noticed any mid range trade offs with my 20g and stock bottom end.

 

[dsmdeliveryboy]

I was worried about the same thing as well, I do autox and road-race and need better spool and when I installed my straight 272's I had lost low-end power until I tuned for the cams. Then it is all much better. I can't see much of a advantage running cams the opposite way(272/264)but just try it and post results..

 

[associator]

agentorange313: I have read that and I do understand how cams work as well as what duration, lift and LSA all mean but thank you for posting that I haven't seen that post before and it is good information for people trying to learn about these things. Also thank you for the information about running the 272 on the intake. I assume from what you posted that delta says that this will add more low end power and spool the turbo faster where as running the 272 on the exhaust will give more top end than the opposite and spool a bit slower. does any one else have anything to back this up?

dsmdeliveryboy: I would love to do that but I don't have the money to make the wrong decision so I would rather buy what I am looking for the first time. However if some one would like to use my car to do an experiment and can supply the cams so we can get some solid fact and experience based evidence up I wouldn't mind donating it to science for a little.