Alternative Fuel E85 E-85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Advanced) [MERGED]

[TranceNRG]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR ADVANCED E85 QUESTIONS, NOT "IS IT POSSIBLE?" THE BEGINNER E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THOSE TYPES OF QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/59040-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-beginner-merged-5-24-8-a.html?highlight=E85+MERGED

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE SERIOUSLY WANTING TO DO THE CONVERSION OR HAVE DONE IT AND HAVE MORE DETAILED QUESTIONS. Below is a quick Ethanol/E85 (Advanced) rundown before you start reading through the merged threads, maybe this will answer you question a bit sooner. To quickly navigate this thread for keywords use the "SEARCH THIS THREAD" tool located in the top right hand corner of this post.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

The stock tank and fuel lines will work fine running E85 and you don't have to change timing on your car when you convert to E85. The smallest pump you'll want to run is a Walbro 255 (rewired), its convenient because it drops right in with a cheap install kit and its a bit cheaper then a Bosch. When you upgrade to such a high flowing fuel pump you'll also need to grab a adjustable fuel pressure regulator (AFPR) to keep everything in check. I also suggest (its not necessary) to upgrade to a FueLab fuel filter with a 40 micron metal element, the Ethanol will eat the OE paper filter over time.

Depending on what time of year it is or your location will determine what type of Ethanol you have available at the pump. Gas stations receive E100 (100% Ethanol) year round and then blend it with 87 octane gasoline and depending on the blend (E85 or E70) it will change the ethanol content rating, octane, and specific gravity of the fuel itself. The typical blends are summer (E85) and winter (E70) which is the MINIMUM amount of ethanol blended with gasoline.

Winter blend (E70)- 70% E100 (113oct) and 30% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 105.
Summer blend (E85)- 85% E100 (113oct) and 15% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 109.​

FINDING OUT WHAT INJECTORS YOU NEED
Since the chemical makeup of ethanol is different you must account for it in your injectors flow rating. To do so you use the following equation by inputing the injectors flow rated on gas multiplied by 0.67. For example, I'll use 750cc injectors and estimate the flow capabilities of them running E85.

750 x 0.67 = 502.5​

After you make the switch to E85 your 750cc injectors will flow 502cc which you'd find out isn't even enough to support the airflow of a 16g turbo.

For you mathematicians, you can also do the equation backwards if you know what size of injectors you would need for you turbo setup on pump gas. For example, a 20g turbos max airflow is 52 lbs/min so on pump gas you would need 880cc injectors to support it.

"pump rated injector flow" x 0.67 = 880
"pump rated injector flow" = 880 / 0.67
"pump rated injector flow" = 1313cc​

After doing the above equation you find that a 1300cc injector will flow about 880cc which is what you want to support a 20g, so before you convert to E85 you need to get 1300cc injectors!​

Like the title says, what did you use to convert to E85?

 

[gofer]

FIC 950's, Walbro 255, FuelLab AFPR, & ecmlink V3.

 

[the_mork]

Changed my injector compensation from 1430 to about 1080. That was all it took for me and then I drove off.

Further later tuning requires upping the timing to actually take advantage of the fuel but I have some other little things to deal with first.

I read your other thread and I have to say that you've done something terribly wrong. When changing to e85 there is NO REASON to change your deadtimes with a well tuned injector. What you have to do is tell the computer that the injector is a different size that it thought it was before, a good starting point is usually to drop your injector size by about 1/3.

I have no idea what the address is on a tunerpro system because I run an evo8 ecu but the information should be readily available.

 

[TranceNRG]

it came down to being stranded and when that happens to our cars that we put so much time in you begin to try anything in desperation just to get it back home. I do have dsmlink v3 on its way.

 

[gofer]

Your profiles showing 950's so I'm going to show you how to do the math to get your global setup correctly to run 100% E85.

Since your 950cc/min injectors were flow rated on gasoline you need to figure out what they flow running Ethanol (E85). After doing the math below you'll find that your 950's flow like a 636cc/min injector on E85, below is the equation to find it.

950 * 0.67 = 636.5

(0.67 is the gas ratio of E85)

Now that you know that your 950's are more like a 636cc/min injector you can calculate your new global settings using the below equation. After you do the math you should come up with a global fuel setting of -29%.

450 / 636 - 1 = -29%

(450 is the size of your stock fuel injectors)

 

[DSM1G90]

Now, this draws an interesting question for owners that don't have any sort of engine management and still wants to use E-85 (if possible)

Thus, for example, we take a stock form turbo setup with the 450cc injectors:

I do the math posted above with taking 450 times .67 and we come up with 301.5 - being somewhat close to the stock NT injectors of 240cc

Looks like when one shoves E85 in their systems, they have suddenly lost quite a bit of power.

Thus, does that owner increase the size of his injectors to get back to where he was at prior to the usage of E85?

We come up with 600cc injectors to return his system back to as if it was running 450's.

..and it looks like gas mileage is going to be less than before.

Please correct me if I'm wrong with the above figures, but what's the big advantage in running E85 outside of the lesser price for the fuel and having a higher octane than traditional RON fuels?

thx-DSM

 

[black_gst]

now, this draws an interesting question for owners that don't have any sort of engine management and still wants to use e-85 (if possible)

thus, for example, we take a stock form turbo setup with the 450cc injectors:

I do the math posted above with taking 450 times .67 and we come up with 301.5 - being somewhat close to the stock nt injectors of 240cc

looks like when one shoves e85 in their systems, they have suddenly lost quite a bit of power.

Thus, does that owner increase the size of his injectors to get back to where he was at prior to the usage of e85?

We come up with 600cc injectors to return his system back to as if it was running 450's.

..and it looks like gas mileage is going to be less than before.

Please correct me if i'm wrong with the above figures, but what's the big advantage in running e85 outside of the lesser price for the fuel and having a higher octane than traditional ron fuels?

Thx-dsm

cheap 110+ oct fuel for around $2 a gallon what more of an advantage would you want?

 

[gofer]

Now, this draws an interesting question for owners that don't have any sort of engine management and still wants to use E-85 (if possible)

Thus, for example, we take a stock form turbo setup with the 450cc injectors:

I do the math posted above with taking 450 times .67 and we come up with 301.5 - being somewhat close to the stock NT injectors of 240cc

Looks like when one shoves E85 in their systems, they have suddenly lost quite a bit of power.

Thus, does that owner increase the size of his injectors to get back to where he was at prior to the usage of E85?

We come up with 600cc injectors to return his system back to as if it was running 450's.

..and it looks like gas mileage is going to be less than before.

Please correct me if I'm wrong with the above figures, but what's the big advantage in running E85 outside of the lesser price for the fuel and having a higher octane than traditional RON fuels?

thx-DSM

Your not losing power, your sacrificing injector flow which is why it takes 950cc/min injectors or bigger to run E85. Its a higher octane fuel (105), it costs me $2.39 a gallon, & I'm running 20* of timing advance on a 12.3:1 AFR. On 91 octane I was paying $3.19 a gallon and I was seeing 6* of timing advance on 10.8:1 AFR's...

Why WOULDN'T you run E85 if its available?!?!

cheap 110+ oct fuel for around $2 a gallon what more of an advantage would you want?

It's 103 to 105 octane depending on the time of year and the location, but your correct it is cheap race gas thats environmental friendly.

 

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

If you're running 37psi base fuel pressure you'll need to take that into account before you make the compensation for E85.
EG:
950cc (tested @ 43.5psi) run at 37psi
square root (37/43.5) = square root .8506 = .9222
.9222 x 950cc = 876.15cc (what they'll flow at 37psi base pressure)

Then calculate for E85:
450/(876.15/1.49) - 1 = 450/588 - 1 = .765 - 1 = -23.47% global fuel adjustment for 950cc injectors run at 37psi base pressure.

Run at 43.5psi I come up with the same figure as stated above, -29.4%.

 

[gofer]

If you're running 37psi base fuel pressure you'll need to take that into account before you make the compensation for E85.
EG:
950cc (tested @ 43.5psi) run at 37psi
square root (37/43.5) = square root .8506 = .9222
.9222 x 950cc = 876.15cc (what they'll flow at 37psi base pressure)

Then calculate for E85:
450/(876.15/1.49) - 1 = 450/588 - 1 = .765 - 1 = -23.47% global fuel adjustment for 950cc injectors run at 37psi base pressure.

Run at 43.5psi I come up with the same figure as stated above, -29.4%.

Good info, I did run my numbers using 43.5 psi for the fuel pressure...

 

[black_gst]

It's 103 to 105 octane depending on the time of year and the location, but your correct it is cheap race gas thats environmental friendly.

I was going to say 100+ oct too but i couldent remember

close enough... 100 oct at the pump is around $6-7 a gallon last i checked so its alot cheaper

 

[flyineagletsi]

So I have a quick very noobish question. I'm not going to run e85 on my current injectors but for the sake of the question...... 680 x .67 =455.6 ...... so is that basically saying that I would have to run stock like air flow since the stock injectors are 450s? Currently I am seeing 37 lbs/min which is a bit more then stock so I know I need bigger injectors but when I go to size out a new set of injectors should I match the injectors to my airflow after multiplying them by .67?

Edit: I suppose I could multiply 680 x .33 = 224.4
224.4 + 680 = 904.4 So to run e85 at the 85% like I currently am I would have to run at least 900's?

 

[the_mork]

No you shouldn't, you should buy injectors that clearly outflow your projected airflow even on e85.

With the current tuning systems available for a DSM there is no reason whatsoever why you should ever run a system that does not have full fuel compensation meaning that you can literally run any injectors on the market that you can wire in as long as it reacts quickly enough that it is physically capable of providing small enough amounts of fuel for idle. Larger injectors just aren't really expensive. Bosch 1600cc injectors can be had for very reasonable prices (~$160/set) if you are going to run mostly e85.

@DSM1G90 No one should ever want to run e85 without a tuning system. There isn't a point and there is significant danger involved. The properties of the fuel require non-linear tuning changes to your fuel maps and huge changes to your timing maps. Quite frankly the benefit of e85 is to literally add an extra 50-60hp out of the same airflow through cramming timing into the engine, an effect you wont find without a good tuning system.

 

[gofer]

...and leaner AFR's. 110% couldn't have said it better though.

 

[GSXSixteenG]

Did you guys change your fuel lines to run e85? I don't have e85 in the area but just a curious question.

 

[flyineagletsi]

I understand that I can run 1600's if I want. I already have Link v3 and understand how to set up a set of injectors. I also wouldn't throw on 900cc injectors because it would be easy to over run them. I clearly asked that if I wanted 85% duty cycle on my injectors then I would need 900cc injectors. Not that I would run 900cc injectors with my current mods and plans. It was a question of knowledge, not opinions for my setup.

 

[jdsoza]

I'm still in the blue printing period of my build, so i haven't done any mods yet. I am building a time trial car. I want a responsive non-laggy turbo and was going to end up looking into either a EVO 16G or a garrett 2871 turbo (used to have one on my 240SX) that spools fast. I see how muh of a timing increase and how much more power can be made, and theres an E85 station near my apartment. When i buy injectors should i get ones made for E85, replace fuel lines and filter? I know E85 can eat fuel lines, pumps and filters but im wodnering since so many people run E85 our cars must handle it well?

 

[pboglio]

I'm already running 20* timing advance and lean A/F's on pump gas, is that a bad thing Seriously though, I'd love to run more than 18 psi without the hassle of race gas. On the dyno my A/F's were 12.5-12.7 and 21* advance, would I even see gains at the same boost level making the switch from racing gas to E85?

 

[JayRolla]

When I first switched I ran 255lph FP, stock, FPR, 1200cc injectors, safc and maf-t. It worked out great. I now have ecmlink v3.

16g @32psi falling too 26-28psi, 15-22* timing and 12.2-12.5 afr's.

 

[ist dwa]

Really injectors are the biggest thing on E-85 and that is going to completely depend on what turbo and amount of boost you desire. Say 14b 20psi, stock ecu and 660s would work just fine, roughly 30% more fuel and the ecu can adjust enough. Any bigger turbo say FP red, you are looking at 1200cc which is going to require ECM link/stand alone to dial in those large injectors, or someone to burn you a chip with the correct globals and deadtimes, and then use an AFC to fine tune. Any bigger say 35r you really need to run the new 2200 cc injectors because all the current 1600cc injectors are crap and the car won't run properly. Line sizes and everything else about the systems doesn't really need catered to. If you want to be picky you can get an E-85 sensor that accurately monitors the amount of ethanol in your gas staions E-85 blend. These can very from station to station and from the time of year as well. E-85 is awesome, but a lot like a high maintenace girlfriend that wants to know what have you done for them lately. Also don't forget with those station changes so can your tune, so if you can't tune yourself, E-85 probably isn't best and if you pay someone, well that could get really exspensive.

Long story short, you can get raped by spending $80/gal for race gas or $2/gal for e-85 but spend a thousand to make it work, totally up to you, also how is availability, it doesn't exist in some places so keep that in mind as well.

 

[falcon8r]

I was going to say 100+ oct too but i couldent remember

close enough... 100 oct at the pump is around $6-7 a gallon last i checked so its alot cheaper

There is LL 100 Av Gas that I buy for my other hot rod and snowmobile. Go the local airport and there is a cardlock. Pump your own. I have a 14 gal fuel caddy. It is priced @market fluc. but right now I pay $ 4.47 a gallon. It works good where I live and it is stable much longer than pump gas and smells good out the pipe. Tres...

 

[habitatguy187]

Long story short, you can get raped by spending $80/gal for race gas or $2/gal for e-85 but spend a thousand to make it work

Cost me less than $250, but it's not an optimum setup by any means, either way, much better than 93.

 

[the_mork]

Really injectors are the biggest thing on E-85 and that is going to completely depend on what turbo and amount of boost you desire. Say 14b 20psi, stock ecu and 660s would work just fine, roughly 30% more fuel and the ecu can adjust enough. Any bigger turbo say FP red, you are looking at 1200cc which is going to require ECM link/stand alone to dial in those large injectors, or someone to burn you a chip with the correct globals and deadtimes, and then use an AFC to fine tune. Any bigger say 35r you really need to run the new 2200 cc injectors because all the current 1600cc injectors are crap and the car won't run properly. Line sizes and everything else about the systems doesn't really need catered to. If you want to be picky you can get an E-85 sensor that accurately monitors the amount of ethanol in your gas staions E-85 blend. These can very from station to station and from the time of year as well. E-85 is awesome, but a lot like a high maintenace girlfriend that wants to know what have you done for them lately. Also don't forget with those station changes so can your tune, so if you can't tune yourself, E-85 probably isn't best and if you pay someone, well that could get really exspensive.

Long story short, you can get raped by spending $80/gal for race gas or $2/gal for e-85 but spend a thousand to make it work, totally up to you, also how is availability, it doesn't exist in some places so keep that in mind as well.

You're on the right track for some things but you have made a few factual errors. First of all there used to be issues with some 1600cc injectors, namely the fomoco ones but that was only if you ALSO wanted to run pumpgas. The 1600cc fomoco injectors in my car have perfect manners on e85 which reminds me that I should update my thread on tuning them. Second if you aren't running out or nearly running out of fuel on 660s with e85 at 20psi with a 14b then you have some significant restrictions in your build, and at this point if you aren't running a fully featured tuning system then you're wasting your time with this fuel anyways because you can't get the power out of it without careful timing control. Finally of anything else that I would say I must object to your cost analysis. A thousand dollars is way more than I spent to get e85 running. All I needed was a bigger pump and bigger injectors. In fact my injectors were so cheap that by the time I sell my evo injectors and pump I will probably be money ahead in the end.

Pboglio, would you see gains from race gas to e85? Probably not, I would be surprised if they were significant BUT you'd be saving yourself about $4/gallon without giving up any performance. GST motorsports claims a typical evo8 will run about 22-23* peak timing on e85 with as much boost as you can throw at it. Plus then you can run your race gas tune every day whenever you're driving it. From numerous reports the fuel is not knock limited so the motor will take timing right up to MBT, what more can you ask for? Also I've never seen an in depth discussion of the issue but I've seen some very smart people mention that the molecules coming from alcohol combustion are of a greater volume than gas combustion which spools the turbo a bit faster, though I've no idea if the cooling effects of e85 might counteract this, or even if e85 EGTs are significantly lower as the lower charge temp and ECT levels suggest.

FWIW also here are some awesome threads that will help you determine what injectors and pump you need for a given setup as a minimum, this is for you specifically flyineagletsi but should be of benefit to everyone. You'll need to match pumps and injectors in your head to figure out how much a given fuel pump will support when running e85 but the comparison is simple so I'll assume everyone can do it on their own.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/244522-injectors-fuel-pumps.html

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/309978-straight-e85-injector-sizing-help.html

 

[pboglio]

The Mork,

Thanks for the links. My main problem is the hassle and cost of mixing my own racing gas, which is killing me. Would be awesome to run my race gas tune every day plus have more consistent, reliable performance. I have other mods that'll give me the power I'm looking for, I just need access to my race tune all the time Since its a weekend car, I'm not too concerned about mileage or range.

 

[the_mork]

So go ahead and make the switch then, I'm not nearly done with cruise tuning and I'm still getting over 200 miles to the tank on the highway. Significantly worse in the city but I may play with it more than I should. I suspect once I have my cruise AFRs nailed down and a little more timing in the right spots I'll be able to manage nearly 20mpg highway.