Need more power.

[pest007]

Hey everyone!
Ok my situation is pretty straigh forward and no uncommon...I need more power!
Here is a quick mods list:

-6 bolt
-264/264 cams
-TI srpings and retainers
-sheetmetal intake manifold
-tubular o2 housing with 38mm turbosmart wastegate
-fp manifold
-680cc injectors
-255lph walbro
-aem fuel rail
-aem fp regulator
-evo3 16g
-2600act and fidanze flywheel
-dsmlink
-metal head gasket and arp head studs
-greddy 24r intercooler with all piping

Not sure if missing anything but thats pretty much the important stuff, here's what im looking for, my hp goal is 400+ hp and a decent spool time (none of those 5000rpm spool ups for me, thanks!). I've done research and i know i need to change my injectors if i get a bigger turbo!

These are the options im currently looking at:

_porting the c*** out of ym evo316g
-20g (duh!)
-fp green (my favorite choice)
-pte bb 50 trim

I know these are all very popular turbos and many people have tested them out! I simply need a kick in the right direction maybe some convincing! All and any help is appreciated thank you in advance!

-John

 

[icekilla126]

i didnt see it up there but im pretty sure you have around 3" exhaust.
EDIT: 1000cc injectors, FP green turbo 272 cams and adjustable cam gears. Good tune. If that doesnt do it add on a 75 shot.

 

[pest007]

Yes sorry i forgot to add the 3inch exhaust and downpipe and a injen air intake!

I was really trying to avoid nos! And as for the cams i dont think id have to change to 272s really? Anyone else have an opinion?

The only things i really want to change are the injectors and turbo.

Does anyone have a little more info than i do about these turbos that i mentioned? Like what can i expect at let's say 20psi? (thats what i am runing my evo316g at)

Thanks again

 

[xdxoxuxgx]

You'll have to go with a bigger turbo and injectors, unless you wanna push your 16g to its limits. Any of the turbos you listed, along with 1000cc injectors, will do the job just fine.

 

[ezz-e]

I say go with the 50trim you can reach your goal with out sacrificing alot of spool up rpm

 

[imagine3163]

You'll have to go with a bigger turbo and injectors, unless you wanna push your 16g to its limits. Any of the turbos you listed, along with 1000cc injectors, will do the job just fine.

If he only wants to push 20lbs then his 680s will be just fine. I am currently running 21lbs on a fp3052 with 650s and I am only seeing 60-70% duty cycle.

 

[pest007]

ok, what about my internals? how good will they be to support 450whp for example!

If any of the turbos i mentioned will do the job just fine then im thinking of going with the green.

btw, howmuch are u pushing at 21lbs on ## 3052? and what is the spool up like? Can i expect something much different from a green? thanks

 

[TOONAH]

I agree with the last two posts. They say DSM big 1G rods will take a thrashing but I doubt that oem pistons will for long. Think about combustion chamber pressure and heat. As you burn more fuel and oxygen the heat goes up and almost on a linear curve as the pressure goes up. With 20 psi of boost you are looking at over 250 psi @ TDC with combustion. That is a nasty little explosion! Those oem pistons can break around the pin.
There are other things to do. Most of them pertain to the cylinder head. You need more throughput. Which means a larger diameter throttle body. You also need 1mm OS undercut race valves and machine out the bowls and ports both on the intake and exhaust. Especially the intake. Unless you do these things and degree your camshafts (must have adjustable sprockets) all the fancy SAFC's and other tuning gizmos will not get you 20% more power.
Trust me, its the head that makes power. Not the block internals. Right on the 3" exhaust. But actually its the muffler that kills your power. World war two fighters just used straight pipes. I squeezed 130 HP out of a Toyota 4ALC SOHC mostly by adding higher compression pistons, a Weber carb and porting the head.
Good luck on you 400 HP quest. Check mine out.

 

[ezz-e]

If your goal is is 400hp you will be just fine with upping the boost. you are going with the correct path all you will need is a turbo that is perfect for 400 to 450hp, your injectors are capable of supporting that hp level. The stock 6bolt motor has been proven once and again to be able to support 400hp jus do a search on it.

 

[TOONAH]

Hey ezz-e, it is nice of you to dismiss me off the cuff dude! Stock pistons will not take 400HP for long. Perhaps if they are original DSM cast 1G pre-92.5 variety I might agree. I would not trust after market pistons such as NPR to 400HP. Course Pest007 did not say what pistons his engine has. For 400 HP you need forged pistons.
I was trying to point out that there is a limit to how many horses you can squeeze out of an oem head, especially the 2G. I have read many posts in many performance forums where engines fail because one component, whether it be a rod bearing or a timing belt can't take the stress of increased horsepower. One needs to be certain that all the critical components can take it. There are many less expensive things Pest007 can do to increase the HP of his engine. Having it professionally tuned for example. How much for the FP Green? A lot of bloody green mate!! !
My rig has Mahle 8.5:1 ultra light weight pistons. I put together the rotating assembly with weight in mind and had it balanced to 10,000 rpm's. I am using ACL Race bearings and Manley Rods. The valve train in my CNC'd 1G head is all Manley. No 400 HP for me if I get valve float at 7K RPM. The 4G63 is what is known as an RPM engine. The top speed is only limited by the RPMs you can develop.
So when you talk about a Dyno and 400 HP you have to state what RPM it was developed at. The engine I am building will probably develop 400 HP at 3.5K - 4.5K RPM. I am building an engine to go faster faster. That is right, 'faster faster' is not a typo. A street fighting machine (which is what I am building) needs to develop as much low - mid range power as possible. What is the point of a 1000 HP engine if it takes all day to get there? Perhaps you would understand me if you studied more power/torque curves. Have you ever degreed a camshaft?

 

[ninesixtwo]

pest007: your mod list is pretty thorough, and is definitely adequate to support a larger turbo (no harm in getting some larger injectors though). If the FP Green is your favorite then go for it, although you should maybe have a look at bullseye's latest extended-tip turbochargers.

I agree with the last two posts. They say DSM big 1G rods will take a thrashing but I doubt that oem pistons will for long. Think about combustion chamber pressure and heat. As you burn more fuel and oxygen the heat goes up and almost on a linear curve as the pressure goes up. With 20 psi of boost you are looking at over 250 psi @ TDC with combustion. That is a nasty little explosion! Those oem pistons can break around the pin.
There are other things to do. Most of them pertain to the cylinder head. You need more throughput. Which means a larger diameter throttle body. You also need 1mm OS undercut race valves and machine out the bowls and ports both on the intake and exhaust. Especially the intake. Unless you do these things and degree your camshafts (must have adjustable sprockets) all the fancy SAFC's and other tuning gizmos will not get you 20% more power.
Trust me, its the head that makes power. Not the block internals. Right on the 3" exhaust. But actually its the muffler that kills your power. World war two fighters just used straight pipes. I squeezed 130 HP out of a Toyota 4ALC SOHC mostly by adding higher compression pistons, a Weber carb and porting the head.
Good luck on you 400 HP quest. Check mine out.

Hey ezz-e, it is nice of you to dismiss me off the cuff dude! Stock pistons will not take 400HP for long. Perhaps if they are original DSM cast 1G pre-92.5 variety I might agree. I would not trust after market pistons such as NPR to 400HP. Course Pest007 did not say what pistons his engine has. For 400 HP you need forged pistons.
I was trying to point out that there is a limit to how many horses you can squeeze out of an oem head, especially the 2G. I have read many posts in many performance forums where engines fail because one component, whether it be a rod bearing or a timing belt can't take the stress of increased horsepower. One needs to be certain that all the critical components can take it. There are many less expensive things Pest007 can do to increase the HP of his engine. Having it professionally tuned for example. How much for the FP Green? A lot of bloody green mate!! !
My rig has Mahle 8.5:1 ultra light weight pistons. I put together the rotating assembly with weight in mind and had it balanced to 10,000 rpm's. I am using ACL Race bearings and Manley Rods. The valve train in my CNC'd 1G head is all Manley. No 400 HP for me if I get valve float at 7K RPM. The 4G63 is what is known as an RPM engine. The top speed is only limited by the RPMs you can develop.
So when you talk about a Dyno and 400 HP you have to state what RPM it was developed at. The engine I am building will probably develop 400 HP at 3.5K - 4.5K RPM. I am building an engine to go faster faster. That is right, 'faster faster' is not a typo. A street fighting machine (which is what I am building) needs to develop as much low - mid range power as possible. What is the point of a 1000 HP engine if it takes all day to get there? Perhaps you would understand me if you studied more power/torque curves. Have you ever degreed a camshaft?

You don't like being "dismissed off the cuff?" Alright, here: For such long posts, you sure haven't added anything but misinformation to the thread. Contrary to what you say, the OP does not require a) forged pistons b) oversize valves c) a bigger throttle body, d) extensive headwork e) adjustable cam gears, or f) a massive muffler to make 400hp. Cylinder pressures are useless for determining the force on pistons - pistons don't break just because there's 250psi of pressure on them. But hey, just because you've paid someone a lot of money to build you a car makes you an expert right? Good luck making 400hp from 3500RPM to 4500RPM perhaps you'd like to let us know what magical turbo is large enough to flow that much air, while still making full boost before 3500RPM. When you do, please spare me the "oh I bet you've never degreed a camshaft," "oh hey maybe you should study more power/torque curves."

 

[icekilla126]

But hey, just because you've paid someone a lot of money to build you a car makes you an expert right? Good luck making 400hp from 3500RPM to 4500RPM perhaps you'd like to let us know what magical turbo is large enough to flow that much air, while still making full boost before 3500RPM. When you do, please spare me the "oh I bet you've never degreed a camshaft," "oh hey maybe you should study more power/torque curves."

Please do not bash each other. He was giving his honest opinion. If you disagree say so. Insults are not needed.

To the op. I think you have been givin some very good suggestions. Though upgrading your internals my not be needed i would resommend it. Better safe then sorry.

 

[pest007]

Hey guys!
Thanks to all of you for all the recomendations, but i ask that you please don't fight about things on my post! All the help you guys are giving me is greatly appreciated and i'm all ears to what is recomended so no on needs to fight!

Ok so here's my dilema!

If i can get 400hp out of my evo316g with some head work then myb il go for that! But im pretty sure i can get it cheaper and easier from a bigger turbo.

As for my pistons they are original 6 bolt pistons no aftermarket goodies there and so are the robs.
My current redline is at 8k rpm, as much as id like to get to 10k i think it's a bit much for the street, i have enough idle problems as it is the bigger cams and valves will just make it worse. (ive considered doing headwork and its definetly in the plan).

As for internals, i was kinda hoping i wouldnt have to go there just yet! My budget isnt what it used to be and honestly i think my tranny will go before the engine.

Oh and another important fact I HAVE A GS-T i forgot to mention that before.

And about my muffler i cheated a little bit. The cops harass me way to much so i put in a 3 inch dynamax for the tip....but don't worry i didnt forget to get the qtp exhaust cut out

thanks again guys!

 

[pest007]

Forgot to add that I might also be upgrading to larger i/c piping with a maf-t setup!
But honestly if i dont get my rpms up a little before taking off the car doesnt take off very quick feels like there is alot of lag...what can I do to coreect that(feels like the throttle response is bad when taking off)
Porting? bigger valves?

 

[icekilla126]

Forgot to add that I might also be upgrading to larger i/c piping with a maf-t setup!
But honestly if i dont get my rpms up a little before taking off the car doesnt take off very quick feels like there is alot of lag...what can I do to coreect that(feels like the throttle response is bad when taking off)
Porting? bigger valves?

Because the turbo doesnt spool up untel you hit higher rpms theres not much you can do with your take off. This is why people install launch control and anti lag systems so they can spool the turbo for a more powerful launch. I would focus on ways to get into the higher rpms quicker. You already have a light whieght flywheel so upgrade all the other pullys to a light wieght setup. The only way that i think you can get more power at low rpms would be more displacement bigger valves and cams, but i know you dont want to go that route. A nice port and polish job couldnt hurt. O and for the maft setup im running that too.

EDIT: An maft setup should improve your throttle response by helping the intake flow better.

 

[pest007]

For the maf-t setup i was looking at the one from dejon, in the stage mods and kit setup. i'm assuming i don't need monster piping because im not planing on running a monster turbo like a gt35r or a gt40, can someone confirm that for me? The dejon maf setup comes with a 3inch gm maf, the translator and 2.5 inch piping i believe. correct me if im wrong please!

 

[pest007]

here's an update and some more info for everyone.
Ive been there and done that and i really don't drive my car pedal to the metal anymore like i used to, so i don't think i should be thinking about doing internals just yet. The 2 things i know im doing for sure are a bigger turbo upgrade and the maf-t setup! Now other than those 2 it would either be a head job or a internal job. Honestly i think head job is more for me. To me throttle response and going faster at higher rpms outweighs a big bang from a larger turbo. Smooth power delivery and crisp response is what im looking for. Me and turbo lag arent very friendly, i dont like him . What do you guys think?

 

[icekilla126]

No you dont need humungo intercollor piping what they provide is good. But dont you have fmic the stage kit they sell is for a side mont.

 

[No_Skillz]

Just throw on a 50trim, turn up the boost, get a wideband, and get a safe tune.

Injectors are an IF... if you see duty cycles above 85% then it's time to upgrade. Before that, it's not needed.

You will reach and handle 400hp without a problem. Just watch for knock.

 

[delta448]

Wow.
I'm glad there's at least a couple of good posts in this thread. I'm in agreement with Mike (No Skillz), ezz-e and ninesixtwo.

The 50 trim is a good choice, but I think you may need just a touch more than 20psi to hit 400whp with it. You have a great foundation, you just need a good tune and likely a little larger turbo to reach your goal. Your stock 6 bolt should handle it just fine as long as you don't tune too close to the edge and end up seeing a bunch of knock.

 

[pest007]

I have a wideband also forgot to mention that .
Last time i tuned it the timing was pretty much at its limits! not sure what i can do for that. (no cam gears)
And i dont mind runing more than 20psi i was at about 24- 25psi for a while on my evo3 16g (i know tis alot )

As for the dejon kit being for a side mount im sure its ok because the greddy kit runs the pipes exactly the same way the side mount does. They do no take a different route!

So what im reading is to get a t3/t4 50 trim and not a green or a 20g?

 

[No_Skillz]

Green (a 50trim variant) is fine also, but more expensive.

20g is fine also, but basically just as expensive and not as good as a 50trim.

Greddy FMIC has it's own UICPs, so why switch to Dejon?

And what do you mean your "timing was at it's limits"?

 

[THE_ARTIST_]

get a GT45R and run it at like 5 psi

 

[droppinbottom]

I think I am proof that the stock internals motor can hold over 400whp with a decent tune.

I have no head work done. So IMO it is not needed to see over 400whp. My intake manifold is OEM as well.

So my .02 goes for a larger turbo and maybe injectors.

 

[pest007]

well when i was tuning it the guy tuning it said he couldnt push the timing anymore cause of knock(i might have heard wrong). And my greddy didnt come with the upper i/c pipe i had to get a custom one. I know dejon sells the whole kit and im pretty sure i don't meed super mage huge piping! Let me know if im wrong please