trying to convert to e85

[AlmightyBoost]

i have a translator pro with a gm map sensor, my question is, once i get my wideband and install the translator pro , are there any procedures that i have to go through before running the e85 fuel such as running higher fuel pressure, or a different heat range of plug, is it safe to just pour in the e85 and start tuning from there? i am running the ngk bpr7es on a walbro 255lph pump. also is the e85 worth the switch from 93 octane gas? im looking for 460whp

 

[mesarius]

E85 has less energy than gasoline so you will have to increase your injector sizes or flow rates to roughly 15 to 30% more than the flow setting for the gasoline setup otherwise you will run very lean. If you don't already, use synthetic oil to further increase the efficiency of your engine. The spark plugs you are running should be fine and your fuel pump should be able to keep up with the higher fuel tune, just also keep in mind that alcohol is more corrosive than gasoline so if you have some fuel lines that are still original it might not be a bad idea to change them. If you are running DSMLink or any sort of stand alone engine management system it should just be a matter of fine tuning.

 

[ClipseGT2000]

You will need to do some modifications to your fuel setup to use e85, what is the reason for wanting to use e85?

 

[AlmightyBoost]

i was looking at some of the power numbers being extracted from the e85 fuel, i have a tune on low boost to make 376whp on 93 but at the same time would like to be able to turn up the boost and make the 650whp that the motor should be capable of, i am using 880cc injectors and i dont want to have to drive to moroso everyday to buy 110 and there is a e85 station that is closer to my house and the e85 is also cheaper... but if it is more corrosive that would eat away at the piston and cylinder walls more rapidly. it may not be too smart to use it at all if thats the case....

 

[boosted eagle]

I have had e85 in my DSM for a little over a year now, and i'm still running the stock fuel lines and haven't run into any problems.It is a good idea to upgrade though.

 

[viperlp01]

grave digger^^^^

 

[diambo4life]

With a decent size of injectors (recommend 1,600cc's) and a good flowing fuel pump (recommend Bosch 044,) you can make upto 550whp on the completely stock fuel lines of a 1G AWD without any modifications. Fuel filter too.

 

[jrohner]

Your 880cc injectors should be fine for E85 to at least 450-475 dynojet hp. Put the E85 in, rescale your injectors, and go. If all you're tuning with is the maft pro, you should look into getting an EPROM ECU and a chip or a chip burner; you'll hit fuel cut really quick because the 880 injectors will be scaled like 600's.

 

[jrohner]

With a decent size of injectors (recommend 1,600cc's) and a good flowing fuel pump (recommend Bosch 044,) you can make upto 550whp on the completely stock fuel lines of a 1G AWD without any modifications. Fuel filter too.

1600's are not necessary for 550hp on E85; 950-1000's should be fine for that. I'm at 414 with 750's, and my cousin is at 321 with 680's; both are running stock lines, filter, and fpr, and 255hp pump.

 

[diambo4life]

Who said they were? On a car teetering at 500whp, I would not recommend running anything less than 1,000cc's.

 

[jrohner]

Who said they were? On a car teetering at 500whp, I would not recommend running anything less than 1,000cc's.

Well 1600's are a lot bigger than 1000's. You give two different answers. Stay consistent if you don't want your posts picked at. You now say 1000's would work after I mentioned 1000's above you, yet now you wanna argue about it.

 

[diambo4life]

Have you made 550whp on E85?

 

[JayRolla]

If all you're tuning with is the maft pro, you should look into getting an EPROM ECU and a chip or a chip burner; you'll hit fuel cut really quick because the 880 injectors will be scaled like 600's.

This is not true. I ran 1200cc injectors on just a maft/safc and never hit fuel cut. He will be fine.

To the OP if your profile is up to date, you will need to upgrade those injectors to safely run that turbo or run low boost so you dont run out of injector. My brother hits 76% IDC on 1000cc injectors flowing 40lb/min on his 16g. I hit 64% on 1200's flowing 40lb/min.

I have been running e85 on stock fuel lines and filter for over a year with no issues also.

 

[diambo4life]

Exactly Jay. That's what I was TRYING to say before I got sidetracked with mindless drivel. The stock fuel lines on a 1G will take you very far even on E85 as long as you have decently sized injectors and a decent fuel pump. That is the reason I quoted specific numbers (from my own setup) so people don't assume I'm talking out of my ass. People should not be in a rush to "upgrade" the lines.

 

[mitsuman3000]

1600's are a lot bigger than 1000's.

 

[jrohner]

Go for the E85, I've been running it for about 3 years in my DSM's (and since 2001 in my racecar which was a carbureted V8), and I would never want to go back to gas. If you run a wideband to your ECU so you can lean out the closed loop, you shouldn't get much different fuel mileage vs gas either. Mine ranges averages 0-2 MPG less than I got on gas (a little worse mileage than that in the cold snowy winter though which you don't deal with in Florida anyways), and it's currently 60c cheaper than regular 87 here. It keeps the engine clean, and keeps the spark plugs looking like new. No E85 won't eat your pistons or anything else. It does supposedly take it's toll on some type of rubbers though.

Have you made 550whp on E85?

Obviously, if I've done 400 on 750's, I know that for 35% more power it wouldn't take 100% larger injectors. He said he was looking for about 460hp, and 880's should be just fine for that, so I don't see how since I don't have 550hp I don't have any knowledge to give this guy. I'm not the one trying to waste his money on massive injectors he doesn't need right now; maybe he'll need them in the future, but that wasn't his question. He was asking if what he has will work fine for now. I say, the injectors -- yeah, the MAFT as the only tuning solution -- it will run but it's not the best.

JayRolla, I don't think IDC's according to a logger mean crap, especially the 74% IDC you brought up, as a stock 1G DSM can break that. When people get to over 120-130% IDC (and run it daily), it proves that that number doesn't mean anything. Also your last post, the 2nd part contradicts the 1st part big time -- 1st you say I'm wrong and that his 880's and MAFT will be fine, and then you say the 880's are too small. I ran an AFC for a year or two, and I'll never go back to one; the MAFT Pro looks pretty sweet, but not as the only tuning gadget. Yes 880's on E85 will be like 600's on gas; that's about where I would set the injector size in an EPROM tune, it's just that you don't have to run as overly rich on E85 like you have to on pump gas that helps them make a lot more power than 600's would get you on gas.

Plus, the timing table is quite important, and he has no way to really control it, leaving quite a bit of performance (and possibly reliability) on the table. I think his money would be better spent on a better tuning solution than putting in some huge injectors that aren't going to gain him anything where he's at currently. In a later post he mentioned wanting 650 hp, but by that time he will need both bigger injectors and a real tuning solution, and probably many more things.

mitsuman3000, I hope you get some reputation points for your extremely helpful post.

 

[BIGBLAZE79]

When people get to over 120-130% IDC (and run it daily), it proves that that number doesn't mean anything.

I thought I was going crazy when I was logging 108% on 660's at 18Psi. How can it be over 100%WTF

I just finished my 1000cc/Walbro255HP/Aromotive FPR setup this last weekend. I saw an E85 pump by my house and I am wondering how far I could push those 1000's with E85. It's so much cheeper than 91 and my motor seems to be knock happy on pump 91. I used some teflon tape on the fuel fittings that screwed into the FPR. I know gas does not affect teflon tape, but does E85?

 

[TRBOBLU]

Who said they were? On a car teetering at 500whp, I would not recommend running anything less than 1,000cc's.

Good point. I was seeing 92-95% IDC's at about 54lbs/min on my turbo. 54lbs/min is pretty close to 500hp but the IDC's were too high for my liking. If you are wanting 550+ I see no reason not to get the 1600's. Anything smaller is a waste of time and you will just end up having to upgrade them.

 

[jrohner]

Good point. I was seeing 92-95% IDC's at about 54lbs/min on my turbo. 54lbs/min is pretty close to 500hp but the IDC's were too high for my liking. If you are wanting 550+ I see no reason not to get the 1600's. Anything smaller is a waste of time and you will just end up having to upgrade them.

54lbs/min - sounds like definitely more than 500 dynojet hp on a decent tune with E85. Still, he said in his 1st post he's looking for 460hp for now, so at the moment he doesn't really need injectors til he turns it up more for his 650 or whatever hp. There's no reason here to argue about what it takes to make 550hp. So we don't all agree; he can take either all of our advice and go somewhere in between, or he can forget us all and do whatever he wants. I'm just trying to give good advice (and not talk him into buying extra stuff he may not currently need), not argue about who knows more. More power doesn't always mean more knowledge, sometimes it just means a bigger budget and different goals.

 

[TRBOBLU]

54lbs/min - sounds like definitely more than 500 dynojet hp on a decent tune with E85. Still, he said in his 1st post he's looking for 460hp for now, so at the moment he doesn't really need injectors til he turns it up more for his 650 or whatever hp. There's no reason here to argue about what it takes to make 550hp. So we don't all agree; he can take either all of our advice and go somewhere in between, or he can forget us all and do whatever he wants. I'm just trying to give good advice (and not talk him into buying extra stuff he may not currently need), not argue about who knows more. More power doesn't always mean more knowledge, sometimes it just means a bigger budget and different goals.

He states in his 2nd post that he would like to be able to turn up the boost and make 650 without having to drive a far distance to buy 110. His setup is perfectly capable of making around 550whp if not more. I can tell you right now 880's will not get you into that range on E85. 1000's would even be a push IMO but people have done it so its not out of the question. I prefer to run safe IDC's that are not constantly at 100+. Again, I know people run at 110-120% IDC's and swear by it, but most everyone will tell you its not advisable. I know when I have ran over 100% IDC's I noticed the car leaning out no matter how much fuel I added. Luckily E85 is very forgiving on a lean tune and generally wont damage anything when ran at 12.5:1 on a gas scale. Anyway, back to the subject at hand. 880's will get you to 460whp. 1000's will take you over 500whp and probably to 550. If 650whp is the eventual goal than it is stupid to buy anything smaller than 1600's because you will just be buying injectors twice if you buy smaller. Another thing to realize is that at about 58lbs/min I was running out of pump(255lph HP) and getting pretty lean on pulls. I added a second 255 and have seen no issues in IDC's(just over 70%) or lean issues and I am approaching 60lbs/min on a modest tune. Take my advice for what its worth but note that Diambo4life and myself both have fast cars and have ran E85 for a while so I consider him and myself pretty knowledgable on the subject.

 

[diambo4life]

Go for the E85, I've been running it for about 3 years in my DSM's (and since 2001 in my racecar which was a carbureted V8), and I would never want to go back to gas. If you run a wideband to your ECU so you can lean out the closed loop, you shouldn't get much different fuel mileage vs gas either. Mine ranges averages 0-2 MPG less than I got on gas (a little worse mileage than that in the cold snowy winter though which you don't deal with in Florida anyways), and it's currently 60c cheaper than regular 87 here. It keeps the engine clean, and keeps the spark plugs looking like new. No E85 won't eat your pistons or anything else. It does supposedly take it's toll on some type of rubbers though.




Obviously, if I've done 400 on 750's, I know that for 35% more power it wouldn't take 100% larger injectors. He said he was looking for about 460hp, and 880's should be just fine for that, so I don't see how since I don't have 550hp I don't have any knowledge to give this guy. I'm not the one trying to waste his money on massive injectors he doesn't need right now; maybe he'll need them in the future, but that wasn't his question. He was asking if what he has will work fine for now. I say, the injectors -- yeah, the MAFT as the only tuning solution -- it will run but it's not the best.

I knew you would post this theoretical stuff that's why I asked whether you had PERSONAL EXPERIENCE in making 500whp on E85. It's very relevant since you would know better than to apply theoretical assumptions which are in deed impractical in real life situations. You reach fueling limits much quicker on ethanol than you do on gas due to the volume of fuel required. I was not questioning your intelligence but your experience in the matter since you had so much to say about what is not necessary. You do not know what it takes to make 500whp or more on ethanol, period... that's why I was a little irked when you retorted to my 1st post by cherry picking what you wanted to argue against. I was addressing the 3 posts prior to mine and the OP did post he was shooting for mid 650whp hence why I recommended what I did. So, yes, I was answering his questions...duh!

You think I have a big budget to make the power I do? Click my webpage link and look at my fuel mod list. I would be the last person making him buy what he did not need.

 

[hairybeanbag]

A buddie of mine in Jupiter is having a hard time finding E85 in the county, he's having to drive about 45 minutes north to get fuel. It's kinda of a PITA but worth it! He made 80 WHP switching to E85 on ### trix dyno.

 

[jrohner]

A buddie of mine in Jupiter is having a hard time finding E85 in the county, he's having to drive about 45 minutes north to get fuel. It's kinda of a PITA but worth it! He made 80 WHP switching to E85 on ### trix dyno.

By the time he gets the fuel and gets back, he's back down to nearly 1/2 a tank. Nice!

 

[jrohner]

1st of all, if he's at 376 hp now, he's most likely not going to be just turning it up to 650 hp all at once the day he fills up with E85, so why should buying injectors be the first thing he should do? I don't see why he wouldn't want to just run E85 and get familiar with it first. Sure, if he eventually wants 650hp, he might as well get the 1600's when that time comes; I never said he will NEVER need the 1600's. The 880's ARE big enough for him to give E85 a try. Here's a plan -- put in massive injectors, e85, and double the boost all at once, destroy engine 5 minutes later.

I knew you would post this theoretical stuff that's why I asked whether you had PERSONAL EXPERIENCE in making 500whp on E85. It's very relevant since you would know better than to apply theoretical assumptions which are in deed impractical in real life situations. You reach fueling limits much quicker on ethanol than you do on gas due to the volume of fuel required. I was not questioning your intelligence but your experience in the matter since you had so much to say about what is not necessary. You do not know what it takes to make 500whp or more on ethanol, period... that's why I was a little irked when you retorted to my 1st post by cherry picking what you wanted to argue against. I was addressing the 3 posts prior to mine and the OP did post he was shooting for mid 650whp hence why I recommended what I did. So, yes, I was answering his questions...duh!

What's theoretical about what I said? You must like the sound of "my IDC% is this", another person was posting that here, yet what's more theoretical than IDC? I would even put money on the similar statement of "I'm flowing this airflow, so my hp is this" any day over taking IDC's as ANY type of fact (unless it's logged on an AEM or something maybe). If it does take twice as big of injectors to make 35% more power than I have, your issue is not the injectors -- the fuel isn't getting TO the injectors. Plus, I'm not one of the two here that are contradicting with inconsistent answers.

Since you're so set that I don't know what I'm talking about, yeah I have ONLY been using E85 for a little over 8 years and only have experience with it in mainly 5 cars -- 2 2g's, 2 1g's, an Evo 8, and a carbureted V8. I've ran from a gallon of ethanol in the gas, up to the purest without liquor tax (E98, as well as the so-called E100 which had a bit of methanol in it). I also used to test the ethanol percentage when getting it from the pump to help keep a consistent tune, since the percentage was sometimes inconsistent from day to day, and station to station (I actually got 92% ethanol at one pump).

I still believe his 880 injectors are fine up to around 500hp, so he could just as well keep them until he turns it up above that; and I still don't believe that his MAFT alone is a great tuning device by itself for that kind of power. With a chip to go with it, I think the MAFT Pro would be a great device though.

This seems to support me on the injectors (yes this was on a topic all about E85 too, with everyone else insisting you need huge injectors):

...i have made 445hp on 760's, and i have made
520hp on 880's on my friends car, and on my buddies teg 575hp on 1000's.

 

[2gGSX]

If you want to get into the nitty gritty on sizing injectors for these setups, then just do the math and you get your answer plain and simple:

880cc/min injectors at full bore, will move 3520cc/min of fuel, which translates into 6.09 lbs/min of E85 (0.7855 S.G.). Assuming 55 lbs/min of airflow for 500 whp, you're looking at a theoretical gas equivalent AFR of 13.5:1 at 100% IDC. Even if you have God's will and can make it in 50 lbs/min of airflow, you have to theoretically run at 98% IDC to keep your AFRs below 12.5:1.

My point is, can it be done? Sure! BUT...Mike, myself, and many others don't feel comfortable telling other DSMers to run their setups on the knife's edge. You can argue that theory and calculations deviate from real world situations, and you are right. Except, those deviations almost ALWAYS turns out to end up causing less fuel flow than what predictions would say rather than the other way around.