Replaced Engine, now won’t run properly

[1Bud1]

I have a 1993 Talon Tsi turbo AWD. Purchased in 1998 for my daughter. Pure Stock except for a 1995 long block engine that was installed sometime prior to my purchase. Ran great for years till the top radiator hose connection broke and lost all the water and burned up the motor when my daughter was driving it in August of 2007 (it really drenched the engine compartment with hot anti-freeze and steam). I live way out in a rural American farming community in Kansas 80 to 100 miles from any metro city with a dealer who should know something about this car. I had the car delivered to a dealer (Jeep/Eagle) who I thought could fix it. It was decided to replace the motor. At that time it was discovered that the car had a 1995 “Jap. take out” motor. The dealer claimed he could not find a turbo motor for it so I contacted a Mark D. (518) 638-5570 of Automotive Machine/DiRossi Engine (overbore.com) in upstate NY to build me an engine and ship to the dealer (he checked the number off the engine against the Mitsubishi data base and built one like it). The engine was just the bare engine and all the old sensors, fuel system, turbo, and etc. was to be installed on the new engine by the dealer. The new engine was just like the one that came out of the car so everything should have transferred to the new engine just like it came off the old engine. The mech. that did the work couldn’t get it all put back to where the car will run properly. I don’t know what all he did to it.

I hauled the car to another dealer (Chrysler) who said they had a so-called expert on these engines. He can’t figure it out either. Said there is no way the car can even start or run with the current setup and said he would have to replace the wiring harness and all the engine electrical ( including the computer) to match the 95 engine. I tried to explain that the new motor was identical to the old motor and that all electrical, fuel, turbo, etc. was removed from the old motor and installed on the new motor so it should run just fine if it was just installed like it was on the old motor as it had been running just great for several years prior to the loss of water and overheating the old motor. I suggested something wasn’t installed correctly or a sensor or something failed due to the old overheated motor (it got really, really hot). He said everything was hooked up as good as can be, and all sensors checked out good. I had decided by then these “experts” had no clue what they were doing.

After over $4,000.00 between these two dealers just to install the motor and get it running again (after I furnished them the motor), I decided it was time to just bring the car home and try to fix it myself. I bought several sets of manuals off the internet (for 93, 94, and 95 year models) and an OBDLoggers data logger (Palm IIIc setup). Right away it said there was a failed Coolant temp sensor and a failed O2 front sensor. I replaced them and then I could at least get the car started. What it does is it will just barely idle when warmed up and then only with some help on the throttle. It really doesn’t want to run at all between idle and 3000 rpm (sometimes around 2000 rpm <surges up to 2400 when hits on more cyl.’s for a couple of seconds then drops off as misfire worsens> once warmed up but very rough and not running on all cyl.’s). Once you get to 3000 RPM it really takes off. Above 3000 rpm it will stay running (though stumbling some), get below 3000 rpm and it will want to die but will usually crank back up and run as described above. It appears it is running very, very rich.

I have run checks on my MAF, Coolant temp sensor, and O2 sensor, and TPS by the book and they all check ok except the new O2 sensor. The O2 sensor I put in was a Bosch. The Bosch Tech rep. said I should be getting a reading of 0 - 1.0 volts between the black and gray wires on the sensor when warmed up (I got .038v at 165 deg coolant temp) with the sensor disconnected, and said I should get 0 volts on the corresponding wires on the harness side (I got .076v at 150 deg. Coolant temp and .066v at 165 deg. Coolant temp). The data logger shows a solid 2.5 volts at all times (sensor connected to harness) since I replaced the O2 sensor and the computer does not latch an O2 sensor code like it did before (the old sensor had no continuity on the checks). I also checked that all the timing marks were lined up (cam’s, and cam/crank sensor with engine TDC). The cam/crank sensor is the 1g type on the back of the intake cam. The new engine does not have the balance shaft. All rotating parts were balanced by Mark when he built the engine and it has his thrust mod..

I have not run a fuel pressure check yet as no one around here has the proper test equipment to do so. I will have to try and find some to order. I did take the return line loose and run it in a gas can and started the engine but it just ran the same as listed above. But the return hose was running a very healthy stream of fuel kind of like a little water hose with some pressure behind it (would that be normal?).

Some readings from the data logger (with the engine not running on all cyl.’s /some cutting in and out and the smell of running very rich). RPM = 2000-2400. INJ PW1 = Peak 3.6ms (varies slowly up and down). INJ PW2 = Peak 65ms (varies quickly up and down). Duty Cycle = Peak 6% (varies 4.5 to 6).

I am sorry this is so long but I felt if you knew what happened, and the events leading up to this time frame, that there might be a clue as to what might be wrong. I am not a mechanic and this is quite a learning curve for me. I have been searching and reading the forums and have found a lot of useful information but not what I need to fix my car. But I feel with you all’s help we can win this battle and get this fine car running again before I go broke or to the nut house. Thanks.

 

[delta448]

Check the O2 sensor leads. It sounds like you have a short that is supplying additional voltage to them. Your coolant or the exhaust mani probably melted the insulation on them when the original engine overheated.

 

[vancitydsm]

you should deffinetly not have 2.5 volts going through your O2.. make sure the fuel pressure regulator is not leaking, unplug the vacuum hose going to it check to see if fuel is in the line. From what i got from you, the intake exhaust manifolds and sensors are the same from the old car. The only thing you replaced is the block and head did i get that right so far? if so you shouldn't have a problem with wiring harnesses and computer like buddy was saying. The few things which can cause such a problem would be a faulty crank/cam sensor (ohm them out before replacing check spec ) remove the egr it could have gotten stuck from the overheating , if you remove it then try to plug the vacuum side with somthing so it doesnt interfere with future testing. . I'm not sure what the pulse width would be at wutever rpm range, but 3.4 ms seems huge.i know its not recommended but i have used the trick many times it has helped 4/5 times. .. take out all the spark plugs connect them to the plug wires and have the tip of them hanging over the plug tube. Crank the car do u see fire comming from each cylinder? you should have a burst of fire comming from each cylinder looks like a fire show but it really shows wuts going on, lack of fuel/spark compression ... Also do a compression check of course.. start with basics do we have spark/fuel compression? do we have any vacuum leaks? try connecting the old ecu back up on your car if you still have it. Start eliminating things..

 

[srumel]

On the data logger, one of the 02 sensor data displays (I'm pretty sure it's Bank 1) will always read a constant voltage, 2.5 I think. The 02 sensor data, Bank 2 I think, will be the one cycling and that will be displaying the read voltage on your front 02 sensor.

Do a little searching on the Bosch 02 sensors on this site. I have read nothing other than people having problems with them. You really should go out and purchase an OEM 02 sensor. This may be contributing to the problem you are having.

Also, did the dealer end up replacing the wiring harness and ECU as he suggested or are all of the electrical components the same as when the car was running before it radiator hose blew?

 

[delta448]

The only thing you replaced is the block and head did i get that right so far? if so you shouldn't have a problem with wiring harnesses and computer like buddy was saying.

I tried to explain that the new motor was identical to the old motor and that all electrical, fuel, turbo, etc. was removed from the old motor and installed on the new motor so it should run just fine if it was just installed like it was on the old motor as it had been running just great for several years prior to the loss of water and overheating the old motor.

I would only eliminate the wiring as a potential problem if it was replaced with a known good harness.

The Bosch Tech rep. said I should be getting a reading of 0 - 1.0 volts between the black and gray wires on the sensor when warmed up (I got .038v at 165 deg coolant temp) with the sensor disconnected, and said I should get 0 volts on the corresponding wires on the harness side (I got .076v at 150 deg. Coolant temp and .066v at 165 deg. Coolant temp). The data logger shows a solid 2.5 volts at all times (sensor connected to harness) since I replaced the O2 sensor and the computer does not latch an O2 sensor code like it did before (the old sensor had no continuity on the checks).

Can you re-word this paragraph? I think I got it, it's just hard to comprehend what you mean with all the parentheses.
Do you have a wideband O2 sensor or are you possibly considering getting one? That would be easier to use than narrowband since a small difference of a narrowband signal can mean so much. Zeitronix has this neat feature that allows you to use the WB to simulate the NB signal and you can offset the NB output... that would certainly tell you if the car really is running rich.

I have not run a fuel pressure check yet as no one around here has the proper test equipment to do so. I will have to try and find some to order. I did take the return line loose and run it in a gas can and started the engine but it just ran the same as listed above. But the return hose was running a very healthy stream of fuel kind of like a little water hose with some pressure behind it (would that be normal?).

Is there a good, non-kinked or pinched, vacuum reference hose connecting the intake mani to the FPR?
If you get the fuel pressure check done, let us know what you're seeing. Make sure you are using a 1G FPR with your 1G ECU and not a 1995 FPR. 2G cars use 43psi base, 1G use 38psi, the ECUs are programmed with correct fuel pressure in mind.

Some readings from the data logger (with the engine not running on all cyl.’s /some cutting in and out and the smell of running very rich). RPM = 2000-2400. INJ PW1 = Peak 3.6ms (varies slowly up and down). INJ PW2 = Peak 65ms (varies quickly up and down). Duty Cycle = Peak 6% (varies 4.5 to 6).

Double check the injectors and make sure they are the stock 450's.

Also, did the dealer end up replacing the wiring harness and ECU as he suggested or are all of the electrical components the same as when the car was running before it radiator hose blew?

We really need to know for sure. Please confirm this quote / give us specifics.

all electrical...was removed from the old motor

 

[1Bud1]

Answers to some of the questions.

Sorry I haven’t got back sooner but job keeps me gone quite a lot.

To ALL: The basic engine was all that was replaced. That was the block, built up head to include cams and timing belt installed and timed by the engine builder. All other items were taken off the old engine and installed on the new engine. No new wiring harness or computer was installed (that was only what the last dealer said it would take to make it run). Installed is basically all the stuff that was on it before it got hot and trashed the old engine. The only thing I know of that was replaced with new was the oil cooler, radiator and hoses, sparkplugs and sparkplug wires. I thought I would replace the fuel pressure regulator with a 1g type as it had a 2g one installed. Ordered it and when it came in I then discovered that the mounting ears are different size and my fuel rail is a 2g type. My Injectors have some letters, MD? and the number 450 on them. The fuel pressure regulator of the 2g might have more pressure but this car has been running really great for the past 8 or more years with this setup so should at least do similar now I would think. Not having a 1g fuel rail, I next ordered a new 2g fuel pressure regulator like was on it before thinking maybe the old fpr was possibly stuck in a high pressure setting causing the engine to flood like it is doing. Time will tell when I get it and get it installed. Am I wrong in that line of thinking??

The Computer in my car has these numbers and letters on the case.
ON FLAT SIDE: Mitsubishi, MD 193299, E 2T 60878, 2Z22 M
ON EDGE: 3299, E2T60878, 170
I assume this is the correct computer for my car?

Some where I saw a fuel pressure tester listed that was for the DSM’s. Was a gage, and an adapter to mount between fuel rail and high pressure input hose. Also saw listed an adapter with air valve and gage to do boost leak checks. I don’t want to make these myself, I just want to buy them ready to go. I found several folks telling how to make them in the forums. But I also saw the kits that were already made listed I’m sure in the forums by folks answering peoples calls for help with problems. At that time I didn’t think I would need that info and did not write it down. Now going back and searching, I can not find that info again. Does someone know of these already built items for sale and how I can order them?

To vancitydsm: The fuel pressure regulator was not leaking. There was no fuel in the vacuum hose. I haven’t got to the cam/crank sensor yet. I haven’t got to back to the O2 sensor yet. I haven’t got to the EGR yet but plan on that being one of my next items to check. I’ve done some vacuum checks, EGR included, and they all check out ok. I have inspected all the wires I could easily get to for damage but so far haven’t found any damage. I only had time so far to only look at areas that might have been damaged during the engine swap.

To srumel: My data logger displays “F O2” and "R O2”. I assume that means front O2 and rear O2. Please correct me if I am wrong as I just got the thing and am still learning how to use it. I am not going to give up on the Bosch sensor just yet till I know for sure that it is the problem. I don’t have any extra money right now and I just bought this O2 sensor brand new and just installed it.

To delta448: Some of your questions were answered above. I agree with you as far as it might also be a wiring problem as that so-called expert mechanic at the first dealer that swapped the engines might have pinched or broke a wire or hooked up something wrong. The wiring harness is the original that has been running in the car before. I don’t have a wideband O2 sensor and don’t really plan on getting one. I just want the car as stock as it was before all this trouble, even if it does have a 2g engine.

The Bosch Tech rep. said I should be getting a reading of 0 - 1.0 volts between the black and gray wires on the sensor with the sensor disconnected from the harness and with the engine warmed up. I got .038v at 165 deg coolant temp. He also said I should get 0 volts on the corresponding wires on the harness side at the same time. I got .076v at 150 deg. coolant temp and .066v at 165 deg. coolant temp while warming the engine up. With the sensor connected to the harness the data logger shows a solid 2.5 volts at all times since I replaced the O2 sensor and the computer does not latch an O2 sensor code like it did before with the old original sensor (the old sensor had no continuity on the checks).

There is a good, non-kinked or pinched, vacuum reference hose from the intake manifold to the fuel pressure relay on the left hand firewall, and from there a good, non-kinked or pinched, vacuum reference hose over to the fuel pressure regulator. The fitting in the intake manifold is open and not plugged. No fuel pressure check yet. See above reference the type of fuel pressure regulator installed and what I discovered when I attempted to install a 1g type. My Injectors appear to be stock 450’s as they have some letters that I can’t remember now because like an idiot I forgot to write them down but I think it was MD “something” followed by the numbers “450”. This was written up on the plastic part and not the metal bottom part and I’m positive the number was 450.

No new wiring harness or computer was installed (that was only what the last dealer said it would take to make it run). Installed is basically all the stuff that was on it before it got hot and trashed the old engine. The only thing I know of that was replaced with new was the oil cooler, radiator and hoses, sparkplugs and sparkplug wires.

 

[srumel]

If I remember correctly, the 02R is the one you want to monitor. For what ever reason in the datalogger coding they are labeled backwards. All I know for sure is that it is the one in the left column with RPM at the top of the column.

As for the fuel pressure gauge, you can buy a B&M fuel pressure gauge that threads into the top of the fuel filter, but the feed hole to the rail is a little on the small side so I wouldn't recommend running the car permanently with it installed.

I personally built my intake leak tester so I do not know where you could purchase one, but my instincts tell me that you could probably find one for sale on eBay.

And yes, that is the right computer for your car. The E in the part number means that it can be reprogrammed after the EPROM chip has been removed and a socket installed. It could be that whoever owned the car before you did some reprogramming on the chip and that is why it ran so wonderfully on 2g fuel pressure. There are likely also other modifications to the computer's programming if such a chip were installed.