phantom knock?

[fubar_mdw]

I have been reading alot for the past few weeks on all kinds of knock
in our dsm's.
so far i havnt read about someone having the same exact problems I am having
so i hope this hasnt already been aswered.
The problem-
i just rebuilt my 95 gsx with a 6 bolt swap,
the valves all got bent so i ordered a remaned one from cimotorsports.net
got the head and put on a new cometic head gasket with arp head studs,
replaced all the gaskets and put the lifters in that where in the old head wich only had a few thousand miles on them (around 4k)
set the timing and it was off a little bit but not even half a tooth, and set base timing to 5
like i read on here to do.
when i got it all back together i went to start it and herd this tapping sound coming from the cas intake area, afraid of a spun bearing i dropped the oil pan and checked out the bearings but they looked fine,
the gas has been sitting for some time (5 months) and the injectors are great, new spark plugs and wires ive put some 93 octane in it and played with the cas a little but im almost certain the noise is coming from the cas or near it,
also when i pull the number 4 spark plug wire off the noise goes away, no other plug being pulled off makes the noise going away.
also tried the stethascope thing and the noise is deff not coming from the block,
any help would be great, i havnt drove the car at all since i put the head on, and ive read about new heads being noisy but id like to make sure before i drive it,
thanks

 

[Calan]

"Knock" doesn't usually sound like actual metal-on-metal clanking or tapping. If you even hear it, it's more like a pinging sound.. or maybe like small marbles being shaken in a can.

What do you mean timing was "off a little bit but not even half a tooth"? I'd double check (and then triple-check) all the timing components. It'll be bad news if that sound you are hearing is a tap-dancing valve.

Can you feel or hear anything when you turn the motor over with a wrench on the crank bolt? (CW only of course )

How does compression look?

Another thought... it MAY be an electrical arc if it is more lick a light "tick", and it goes away when you pull just the plug wire, but it doesn't seem likely.

 

[blownturbotsi]

I have seen injectors that tick, check everything from the previous post first, then when you get it running feel the injectors one at a time to see if it's that. May need to be cleaned?

 

[absolute_DSM]

also when i pull the number 4 spark plug wire off the noise goes away, no other plug being pulled off makes the noise going away.

Uh oh, you know what that means dont you?

Well, if you didnt get shocked when you pulled the plug wire...... usually when you pull the plug wire and the noise goes away means you have a bad rod bearing in that cylinder. Reason being, the spark is taken away so the combustion is taken away meaning the load is taken away.
When the piston/rod have load (combustion) you hear the knock. When you pull the plug wire (no load) the knock goes away.

 

[fubar_mdw]

Thanks for the posts,
just reset the timing its great, rotated the crank 6 times didnt feel anything,
i moved the fuel injectors around thinking it might be a bad injector
still the same noise in the same spot,
compression looks good all across the board,
and i swapped around the wires to see if it was a bad wire or not

 

[Meklo_4G63t]

I had the same problem in my work car.....91 GST. its hard to say if its the timing because i went threw oil to injectors to sparkplug wires and suprising it was the same cylinder. What i did was put the light on it (timing light) and figure the adjustments for timing.. My car only did it when it warmed up but just when it was cold. I got better driving and i never heard it thru my revs. if your good at timing u can pin point it. also make sure u have the right adjustments for that because i hate to heard another head is what u are buying for bent rods

 

[fubar_mdw]

Uh oh, you know what that means dont you?

Well, if you didnt get shocked when you pulled the plug wire...... usually when you pull the plug wire and the noise goes away means you have a bad rod bearing in that cylinder. Reason being, the spark is taken away so the combustion is taken away meaning the load is taken away.
When the piston/rod have load (combustion) you hear the knock. When you pull the plug wire (no load) the knock goes away.

Ya that was the very first thing that came to mind but the noise isnt coming from the bottom end of the engine, its comeing from the head far as i can tell

 

[Calan]

Ya that was the very first thing that came to mind but the noise isnt coming from the bottom end of the engine, its comeing from the head far as i can tell

absolute_DSM has a good point...

How did you check? As you probably know, cars/engines are sound transmitting freaks. You can hear something in the right front wheel and it will be a loose gas tank strap in the back

Pick up a $6 mechanics stethoscope from a parts store, or if that's too expensive, use a long thin metal rod laying against different places on top and underneath at the oil pan. You can connect some small dia vacuum hose to one end of the rod and listen through it to make it a little easier. Watch out for moving stuff though . It's not perfect, but definitely better than just listening with bare ears.

 

[fubar_mdw]

i will go pick up a stethascope today,
however i did use the screwdriver way a few times.
I think today i will put the rest of the car together and drive it slowly to the
gas station and then see if i can get it to a dsm shop over here

 

[fubar_mdw]

bought a coolant temp gauge and a mechanics stethascope today,
went out and installed the gauge because mine just stopped working for some reason
anyway that works great now,
to the knock though,
i ran the stethascope all over the motor and herd the lifters tapping away in the head,
ran down to the oil pan didnt hear anything but s spinning noise deff not knock though,
put the stethascope on the cas and herd the noise took off the number 4 plug wire and the noise died down sounds like the cam shaft is grinding in the cas or what ever but this was the only place i could really hear any knocking sound and when i put in on the fuel rail seemed like there was a slight knocking sound,

 

[fubar_mdw]

drove the car out of the garage need to bleed the brakes and the clutch almost no pressure.
got it in the yard and the knock seems to deff come from the cas, when i rotate it and the engine revs a little higher the noise almost goes away but when i rotate it the other way it gets worse,
im thinking fuel or a bad cas but if it was a bad cas it wouldnt do anything would it, the car is on empty with gas and its pretty old gonna see if i can make it to the gas station

 

[fubar_mdw]

just drove to the gas station and filled up with 93 octane drove great and felt great just like it did
before the car took a shit.
the car still knocks but cant hear it when im driving it and theres no odd jolts or
anything drives smooth

 

[Meklo_4G63t]

just drove to the gas station and filled up with 93 octane drove great and felt great just like it did
before the car took a shit.
the car still knocks but cant hear it when im driving it and theres no odd jolts or
anything drives smooth

I THINK ITS A VALVE ON THAT NUMBER 4 CYLINDER

 

[fubar_mdw]

I THINK ITS A VALVE ON THAT NUMBER 4 CYLINDER

so you think the mechanic i had do the head job messed up one of the valves
or a bad seal or something.
someone said earlier that rod knock sounds like marbles in a bag,
this knock noise sounds like when someone smacks there tongue off the roof of there mouth and it makes thats smack sound if you know what i mean, not a good way to explain it but thats all i can think off, im going to drive the car to millinium auto tomorrow though, ill post what they say, i called the guy though at millinium and he said it could be a wrist pin or something like that to. what do you guys think?

 

[Meklo_4G63t]

so you think the mechanic i had do the head job messed up one of the valves
or a bad seal or something.
someone said earlier that rod knock sounds like marbles in a bag,
this knock noise sounds like when someone smacks there tongue off the roof of there mouth and it makes thats smack sound if you know what i mean, not a good way to explain it but thats all i can think off, im going to drive the car to millinium auto tomorrow though, ill post what they say, i called the guy though at millinium and he said it could be a wrist pin or something like that to. what do you guys think?

My best mechanic is in your area.....South Lynhavenn parkway there is a shop called direct prefomance. And there is another good one that is more of a shade tree mechanic thats right off VB blvd by the I-264 over pass. I would say take it to them for and opinon to hear it.. The guy at the shade tree one Owns a Talon himself so i know he will identify it alot quicker. Direct prefomance is also good but steep on prices.. My accumption now is that it might be a bearing or your valve springs are not adjusted so when u her that smack it might be your spings are loose on #4 and when it under fire u will here it. Im pretty sure its needs adjusting but go have them look so u dont put to much on there engine. I dont know anything in the hampton area but i use my connects for u

 

[fubar_mdw]

My best mechanic is in your area.....South Lynhavenn parkway there is a shop called direct prefomance. And there is another good one that is more of a shade tree mechanic thats right off VB blvd by the I-264 over pass. I would say take it to them for and opinon to hear it.. The guy at the shade tree one Owns a Talon himself so i know he will identify it alot quicker. Direct prefomance is also good but steep on prices.. My accumption now is that it might be a bearing or your valve springs are not adjusted so when u her that smack it might be your spings are loose on #4 and when it under fire u will here it. Im pretty sure its needs adjusting but go have them look so u dont put to much on there engine. I dont know anything in the hampton area but i use my connects for u

I tried to call direct performace i used to always deal with rj there but now adays seems there never there and now i get a wrong number tone when i call, i figured they went out of business or something, thats why i was going to go to millinium lot of my freinds been there and they seem to do pretty good work

 

[Meklo_4G63t]

I tried to call direct performace i used to always deal with rj there but now adays seems there never there and now i get a wrong number tone when i call, i figured they went out of business or something, thats why i was going to go to millinium lot of my freinds been there and they seem to do pretty good work

That must be a new shop within the last three years. I cant remember the name of the shop that was between Great Neck and First colonial on VB blvd but i remember the shop DCR use to sit in front of them.

 

[fubar_mdw]

That must be a new shop within the last three years. I cant remember the name of the shop that was between Great Neck and First colonial on VB blvd but i remember the shop DCR use to sit in front of them.

So your in bremerton washington?
Im from around that area graduated high school in mattawa wa.
nice area, i should up for orders in 14 months or so and theres wherer im trying to get.
not sure how new millinium is though but its been there for atleast 2 years.

 

[blownturbotsi]

Have you taken off your valve cover to look around yet? I think you should try swapping the 4th injector with another one just to be sure it's not that before paying someone else.

 

[fubar_mdw]

Have you taken off your valve cover to look around yet? I think you should try swapping the 4th injector with another one just to be sure it's not that before paying someone else.

I already swapped the injectors, swapped around the plug wires tried putting a diff spark plug in the number 4, took the valve cover off and jiggled everything to make sure nothing was loose, took the throttle body off and cleaned it, replaced all the seals on the injectors,

 

[Meklo_4G63t]

So your in bremerton washington?
Im from around that area graduated high school in mattawa wa.
nice area, i should up for orders in 14 months or so and theres wherer im trying to get.
not sure how new millinium is though but its been there for atleast 2 years.

Ill be in north carolina before them but the DSM club is pretty strong out here. I think i rather be a 1/8 mile racer in Elizabeth city. But i not coming back to va

 

[GVR4592]

Is it a metallic knocking sound or is it a really sharp ticking sound?

 

[fubar_mdw]

deff not metalic but more of a of a ticking sound i spose.

 

[fubar_mdw]

Ill be in north carolina before them but the DSM club is pretty strong out here. I think i rather be a 1/8 mile racer in Elizabeth city. But i not coming back to va

Ya i dont much care for this area.
i would rather be back on the west coast.
good to hear about the dsm community being strong over there, from what ive seen
and herd theres only a few of us over here in the hampton roads area.

 

[finnie3d]

I'd be interested in getting with you - to strengthen the DSM community in this area and because I've been hunting down this knock/tick/brrack sound too. I've heard people say many of the same things you did - wrist pin, rod bearing and now maybe lifters. I hear that brrack when I cold start, then it clicks or ticks (whatever) both at idle and when I accelerate. I don't hear it when I'm coasting and it goes away at idle when I press the clutch in. (p.s. DSMer's - It's got a brand new T.O. Bearing <not the metal one>). The whole motor was rebuilt about 4K miles ago and the head was fitted with new lifters - or so says the machinist that rebuilt it (it was my first time using him and having a 4g63 rebuilt).

The car drives like a dream otherwise and gets 22-24 mpg consistently. Does this sound like your sound/situation at all? Maybe we can help each other. Or maybe the DSMer's can help both of us. I'm off work this Saturday and will be working on mine so let me know something.