.48 a/r 50 trim - little hottie?

[We're on Boost]

Anybody have any experience with a Turbonetics or Garrett 50 trim with the .48 a/r turbine housing?
Some of the SRT4 guys are lovin these things. They are saying spool much sooner than the .63 a/r, more power in the mid-range, and makes about the same power at the top end as long as boost is less than 25 psi.
Wonder how people are doing with them on 2 liter DSMs?
Check out this dyno pull:

50trim .48 back half DYNO! - SRT Forums - SRT4, SRT6, SRT8, SRT10 & Dodge Forum

Gary

 

[GVR4592]

Notice how power and torque drop like a rock? That's not good.

 

[We're on Boost]

Notice how power and torque drop like a rock? That's not good.

These SRT4's have the rev limit at 6250 rpm. That's exactly where it drops like a rock.
At 6200 rpm on this dyno run it is still making 430 fwhp, down only about 10 hp from the peak. That's at 23 psi on ~ 102 octane gas. Sounds to me like this car still had stock cams too, and he was complaining about a boost leak.
He's making 300 fwhp already at 4000 rpm on the same pull.
This wasn't even a ball bearing turbo.
I think it's insane!

 

[Ravenous]

That seems like one sweet street setup. Low spool, awesome numbers I want one. Does anybody make one with the same a/r in a bolt on mitsu setup? If they did go bb that would be amazazing

 

[We're on Boost]

That seems like one sweet street setup. Low spool, awesome numbers I want one. Does anybody make one with the same a/r in a bolt on mitsu setup? If they did go bb that would be amazazing

Well if I'm reading the PT&E catalog right, they make a .48 a/r mitsu style bolt-on housing for their Garrett 50 trim, with ball bearings. It would be a SC5031R something.

The one in the SRT thread is a T3 exhaust side with external wastegate and the Turbine housing is made by (or for) AGP. I really don't know how much difference in performance there would be, you know, between the AGP T3 and PTE DSM style housings. I'm thinking about converting to T3 anyway. But now that I think about it, when I was looking for DSM bolt-on turbos, I called PTE with some questions about the GT3071 and they said nah, get a ball bearing 5031 (50 trim) with the .48 a/r bolt-on housing. Maybe they knew what they were talking about!

 

[dsmconvict]

It all comes down to personal preference IMO.

 

[GVR4592]

It drops like rock because of excessive backpressure. It would make more power and have a similar spool in a larger turbine housing. There are a number of other benefits to lowering backpressure, it's a good subject to reserch.

SBR had a similar issue with their GT35R in .48 A/R housing, check out the dyno graph. It might seem like a lot of power but it could've made that much power, or more, in a .82 A/R housing with less boost.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/hangout/163528-sbr-bolt-35r-stock-ecu-magic-601whp.html

 

[GVR4592]

Check out post #34 and post #38. It was most likely knocking past 6200 rpm's because the backpressure was causing a lot of heat to build up in the combustion chamber.

 

[We're on Boost]

It drops like rock because of excessive backpressure.

I know what you mean that a larger a/r can make more hp at the same boost, but Whaaa?? you don't believe me about the rev limit on the SRT4?
Well just to be sure, I PMed blacksrt311 and asked him why their dyno hp drops like a rock after 6200 rpm. I shoulda maybe PCed the reply but it made me laugh, hope it makes you laugh too. It is an interesting subject, as you said. Anyway this is what he said: "Car peaks for whp at redline. those guys are doosch bags. This car has stock ecu. 6200 redline. "

Ok, sorry about that.

Anyway, big max hp numbers at redline aren't what this turbo is all about. It's about "area under the curve", and quick recovery after a shift, and quick response when you are toddling along at 20mph in second gear and all of a sudden hit the gas. It's also to prevent embarrassment when I give a friend a ride who has had every model of M5 that has ever been made and he thinks turbo cars are garbage because of excessive lag. Hey!

Gary

 

[GVR4592]

I'm not referring to the first dyno sheet, it's obvious that torque will not drop that fast from a turbo running out of flow. The second and third graphs are what I'm talking about. I think it's funny they don't show the RPM's on the dyno plot, are they trying to hide something? You can't really compare it to anything because of the lack of RPM data. Either way I think using that small of a hotside is a really bad decision because of backpressure, and that's probably why PTE sells them in the .63 housing by default.

If you want to buy one with the .48 housing, dyno it and swap to a larger .63 housing. I'll send you the .63 housing for the dyno test. Just make sure you order the turbo with the 69 trim T31 wheel, because that's my housing was built for.

 

[We're on Boost]

If you want to buy one with the .48 housing, dyno it and swap to a larger .63 housing. I'll send you the .63 housing for the dyno test. Just make sure you order the turbo with the 69 trim T31 wheel, because that's my housing was built for.

Thanks for the offer! Actually I will probably buy 2 or 3 turbine housings right off the bat, all from the same vendor. That way I know they will all be correct fitting and hopefully made to the same design specs and soforth. AGP makes a big deal about how the internal design of their turbine housings is better than most. Also, blacksrt311 says AGP will make a .55 a/r housing for me if I want. Haven't checked that out with AGP yet.
According to AGP, if I get ball bearings, the .48 might spool so fast that it would surge (during low rpm wot). For that reason they recommend plain bearings (not bb) with the 48. But I want to try it with bb and a 48. Turbonetics puts their 1 year no-questions warranty on it just like anything else in their catalog, so I figure it can't be that bad! Then if it does surge I'll try some anti-surge tuning and/or swap to a larger a/r housing if I have to. I'm also asking around to see if anybody makes a credible anti-surge ported compressor housing for this turbo. That would be a TO4E housing made for the 50 trim wheel. The GT-K 350 uses this wheel, so it would probably work, except that the way it fits up to the backing plate is different so no go there according to AGP.

Yeah, the pictures of those dyno pulls, the bottom is chopped off so you can't see the RPM numbers. But hp and tq curves always cross each other at 5250 rpm (when the hp and tq scales are the same as they are on these). From that you can figure out that the vertical line to the left of that is 5000rpm, the line to the right of it is 5500rpm, the next line to the right is 6000, then the hp drops like a rock at 6250, the vert line to the right of that is 6500, and so on. It all fits. I've been looking at SRT dynos for a long time because they use "standard" T3 turbos a lot, whereas most of the DSM people are using bolt-on DSM style housings. So I'm used to this rev limit at 6250 thing. The only way they have around it is with a full stand alone like the aem ems, and usually they just go with these staged kits from mopar instead. Lots cheaper and pretty good results. One of the guys in the SRT thread also asked for rpm numbers, that was rjlo. Interestingly, he has been experimenting with GT-K turbos, and the last I heard, he is trying to get turbonetics to sell him a .48 housing for his GT-K! For the same reason I'm interested, he's just tired of the excess lag and is willing to give up a little on the top end in exchange for more "area under the curve" and quicker shift recovery.

 

[crazy_skier]

I had the agp kit which isnt sold anymore... with the .48 a/r and a 38mm tial external. on my 2.0 it pulled like a race horse from hell.... it was an on/off switch for boost. when I launched you would be so far back in your seat it wasnt funny. Once the 2.4 and 272's went it it was spooling as quick as my buddys evoIII16g almost.... i couldnt tell the difference except for the massive amounts of more power. on the 2.4 it dropped power around 6700 rpms it fell on its face. With the 2.0 it was able to goto 7000. If you want a fun and powerful street turbo, I would do this over the evoIII16g. Its awesome and even on 16 psi it was really fun. Thats what I want from a turbo car again instead of the high numbers.

 

[We're on Boost]

With the 2.0 it was able to goto 7000. If you want a fun and powerful street turbo, I would do this over the evoIII16g. Its awesome and even on 16 psi it was really fun. Thats what I want from a turbo car again instead of the high numbers.

That's what I'm thinking.
Was that turbo a ball bearing or "standard" bearing?
Was it a T3 setup, or DSM bolt-on? (I think AGP actually used to make bolt-on stuff for DSM's, but not anymore). The Tial - on the manifold or what?

Thanks for the input man!

Gary

 

[stomp]

I'm pretty sure the bullseye turbos are .55 A/R thats right about as far as I would draw the line..but,I don't know though that .48 sounds like killer fun and since my car will never really see the track and to just be a street car that just might be my route

 

[We're on Boost]

I'm pretty sure the bullseye turbos are .55 A/R

I've been wondering what all they make too, so I looked just now at what they show on their web site. The .55 is definitely their favorite a/r - they make a .55 for every style housing listed. But you know what's weird is I looked until my eyes blurred and I COULD NOT find a TO4E 50 trim on the lists anywhere. They are pretty good at answering e-mails, I think I'll send them one and ask what's up with that.

Gary

 

[crazy_skier]

it was a t3 and it was a standard bearing. The turbo is a garret 50 trim.. i know slowboy sells it for $750-$800 (find a different vendor). The manifold is a south florida performance with a wg that is centered over the flange......

I would highly reccomend this style of a set up, and then maybe some porting and small cam set up for even quicker spool. I'm not sure if it hurt my midrange but I have a magnus smim to.... so a 1G would maybe spool quicker since I've heard they have a little better low end/midrange.

have a fun super car that leaves everything well behind off the line (on the track)

 

[Turbo Monk3y]

This is not the same as a 4g63 but I actually sold my .63 A/R 57 trim turbo for a brand new .48 50 trim turbo for my 93 Mr2. The highest boost it sees is like 17psi with race gas and the entire power band with the .48 50 trim is just 100 times better than the peak HP 57 trim on the .63 this is of course not setup for race, thats what I have my talon for. But driving around town and everywhere else is just that much better... So for fun .48 and HP/race .63 on these small turbos... \

Also another thought.... 2.4L on a FWD neon = mistake. Putting a larger turbo with a .48 hotside on a 2.4L FWD car = wtf you lose...

 

[ScottH]

I think the .48a/r on a dsm would run out of steam on the top end. Me personally, I like a turbo that pulls all the way to redline. The .48a/r hotside IMO won't allow such. The SRT guys like the 48 hotside cause they spool quick and they don't have to raise up their redline. But IMO Fast Spool + FWD = No Fun unless you like smoking your tires

 

[stomp]

I wonder if anybody makes one in between the .48 and the .55,like a 52 that would probably be the one I would choose ,but then again I'm not going to be on a track,just a lot of corners and occasional strait stretches

 

[c4uldr0n]

I couldn't imagine FWD 2.4L w/ that 50trim. I have a 2.3L Stroker w/ a 50 trim and I can break 4 tires loose.

 

[ScottH]

I couldn't imagine FWD 2.4L w/ that 50trim. I have a 2.3L Stroker w/ a 50 trim and I can break 4 tires loose.

I had a 04 Srt4 back in 04 and I had the AGP GT40 kit for mine. Unfortunately I didn't keep the car long enough to install the kit but I couldn't Imagen the wheel spin I would have had. Hell, I had under $400.00 in mods and the car was useless until 3rd gear and even then it was hairy... Car made 290whp and 340trq with under $400 in mods..

 

[We're on Boost]

FWD = too much wheelspin, true, but these crazies do it anyway. They do tend to like slicks when they go to the strip. In rolling start street races they seem to do pretty well though. R.J-LO vids on streetfire.net, racing rwd camaros and stuff, his car does good from 45mph roll. Had over 400fwhp at the time. Me, I'm awd and rwd all the way except for my "bad weather" car (which has 102 hp ).

 

[We're on Boost]

The manifold is a south florida performance with a wg that is centered over the flange...

That SFP manifold you had on your 2 liter, was that a tubular?
I can't find a picture of one anywhere.

Gary

Man this server needs a shot of nitrous or something

 

[crazy_skier]

yup its tubular and ceramic coated. the manifold was from 2002 and it cracked for its first time this summer... i've heard some things about them cracking but alot of those that I saw were not ceramic coated.... oh and i sand blasted mine to re-do it but never got around to it and then she cracked. that is a perfect set up if keeping redline at factory and wanting more power than the 16g. Now that i've been talking about it so much I wanna build another with that same set up

 

[stomp]

Crazy,where and when did it exactly start boosting at on the 2.0 ?