Upgrading, could use thoughts

[Puscifer]

Well, so far I've ordered FP 272/272 cams and Brian Crower springs / SS retainers w/ SS valve stems. I've got til monday before the order is finalized so I can change the cams to 280/280 which i've been thinking of if i proceed to upgrade the block. I figure with running 280's i'd have to have coiled springs, if so.. screw it, i'm gonna stay w/ the 272's.

Now, with that said, should I upgrade the pistons and rods in the block or should i just leave the stock ones in and replace the bearings and such while i'm here. I don't want to over do the head and leave the block barely pushing, i'd like equal power. but, everywhere i look it seems if i upgrade to the 8.3 or 9.0 CR pistons it may be to much for the valvetrain i'm running. Either or. Money isn't an issue. If i don't need to replace the pistons/rods i'll just use the cash for a MAFT and couple other tuning tools i've been wanting. Thanks in Advance

 

[winterftbl]

Well it all depends on what power you are looking for. Cause if your going for more then 400hp. Then I would upgrade the bottom end, but for 300, I would not. Also arent 280's for race applications? Is your car going to be a race car?

 

[Puscifer]

From what i've read, yeah. 280's are more agressive and require double springs then definitely block work, that's why i made the comment i can call and modify my order monday before 3pm. But, I guess that's all i needed to know, unless anyone has anything else to share. Thanks!

 

[Twistaye]

Yeah, the 280/280's you would definately need to do some block work. The 272/272's would have better manners on the street, and better idle quality also. BC recommends that the 280's be used on "fully built" engines, it also suggests that ECU tuning be done. Whereas with the 272's, you can use OEM springs, and it would just generally be better all around for a daily driven vehicle. If your plans include doing a fully built engine, I would check out some of Buschur racing's items, but with the right bolt-ons, and the right tuning, you might be able to satisfy your horsepower goals without breaking apart the head or block. Ahh I'm sorry, strayed from the subject, my vote is for the 272's for sure! Good luck man, update us with how everything turns out!

 

[Puscifer]

Thanks twist, that's pretty much what i was looking for bud! easy tuning.

You think if i were to put the 8.3 CR wiseco pistons in w/ upgraded performance bearings it would affect the valvetrain currently w/ the stock like springs and 272 cams?

 

[dsm-onster]

Thanks twist, that's pretty much what i was looking for bud! easy tuning.

You think if i were to put the 8.3 CR wiseco pistons in w/ upgraded performance bearings it would affect the valvetrain currently w/ the stock like springs and 272 cams?

Building the bottom end (block) or not would have NO effect on the valve train at all. Unless one used unusually high compression (or dome top) pistons, where valve clearance would be an issue. That would be a terrible choice for a boosted application. No one needs to touch the bottem end to run 280s.

But, no one would need to rev their engine to a level where 280s would shine to reach the limit of their 7-bolt (1992-1999) block. 272s are all that's required and are more 'streetable'. In fact, 264s are even BETTER for the street and flow plenty for what a 7-bolt bottem end can handle. And couple great to a quick spooling, hard hitting evo3 16g.

A maft is a poor choice for fuel control neccesary to merit a bottem end build. A maft is limited (due to timing advance) to 650cc injectors which can be pushed slightly beyond a safe max limit for your 7-bolt. Swapping in some used 6-bolt rod/pistons is more than enough build for that. That would be a 500whp capable build. Not that you could reach that number, but your block could handle it.

These blocks are tough, the cranks are indestructable and the internals are surprisingly resilient. So what are your HP goals? You'll need more than that little evo3 16g to merit a bottem end build.

 

[Puscifer]

Damned good information monster. I appreciate it. I come from domestic V8 builds and i'm still learning about the turbo world and such. I remember running into coilbind a lot on some of the ford 351 windsors and i guess i'm just paranoid about matching up at the moment. I don't really have any HP goals, i just want a strong motor to be honest. I know these cars are built to run fast and with that they're a money sink. I just want a good setup with no conflicts and everything to hit nice.

So, with all that said, 272's are fine *264's would be better* , stock bottom end is fine unless i upgrade my turbo to something such as a 60trim or 20g? (just mentioning for clarification)

I read all over the place that a MAF-T is one of the better investments for our cars. You disagree? or did i misunderstand something? Assuming I leave the bottom end alone, would it be a good or bad idea to snag one? I do have an SAFC-2 and logger, still learning some of it, before the HG blowout i kept about 5% LTFT and STFT so i guess i wasn't doing to bad with tuning.

What would you suggest I do to even this out? Thanks a lot man. I'm up for anyone's advice!

 

[Eclipsegst2312]

I got the fp2's with the crower springs and retainers and love them. The idle is not too bad and they add up top. I made 301whp at 12psi with them on my to4b v trim on 93 octane with a stock 7bolt bottom end

 

[Puscifer]

That's Awesome man. Good job. Ever thought about dipping into the bottom end?

 

[dsm-onster]

Damned good information monster. I appreciate it. I come from domestic V8 builds and i'm still learning about the turbo world and such. I remember running into coilbind a lot on some of the ford 351 windsors and i guess i'm just paranoid about matching up at the moment. I don't really have any HP goals, i just want a strong motor to be honest. I know these cars are built to run fast and with that they're a money sink. I just want a good setup with no conflicts and everything to hit nice.

So, with all that said, 272's are fine *264's would be better* , stock bottom end is fine unless i upgrade my turbo to something such as a 60trim or 20g? (just mentioning for clarification)

I read all over the place that a MAF-T is one of the better investments for our cars. You disagree? or did i misunderstand something? Assuming I leave the bottom end alone, would it be a good or bad idea to snag one? I do have an SAFC-2 and logger, still learning some of it, before the HG blowout i kept about 5% LTFT and STFT so i guess i wasn't doing to bad with tuning.

What would you suggest I do to even this out? Thanks a lot man. I'm up for anyone's advice!

You have a 2g maf. It is good for 500whp. You have an SAFC. It can tune in finer incriments than a maft. You don't need a maft. You've dialed in your fuel trims fine. So you seam to have a handle on tuning.

272s would be better for a bigger turbo.

4g63s are the cheapest power you can get. You can pull out 300whp w/ a $150 14b and 550s, and safc.

If you plan on not running more than 400whp in the future, upgrade to ARP head studs, run 650cc injectors (retune your safc), add 264s (or FP1s); and you'll have all you need.

 

[lasthope05]

You really also dont need the springs, valves or retainers. I find those items useless unless your running a larger size turbo. Unless your trying to rev a 16g to +9k then there is no point to having them, even tho its retarded because you are way out of its power band. The stock heads will take you a long way! Too many of us have made 500+ whp on the stock heads with hks 272 cams. The stock springs are known/tested and proven to be able to rev 8500rpm safely with no valve float. SHIT..my buddy revs his motor, stock valvetrain, to 9k when ever he went to the track and no float what so ever.

No modification what so ever to the block or head is needed to run 400-450 whp safely on the 6 bolt or 7 bolt. You might add cams to move your power band up higher but thats about it. Anything bigger than 272's or equivilant you will need to upgrade you springs because of the higher lift and ramp rates.

As dsm-onster said, you will need the ARP head studs if you plan to run higher boost levels. AFCs are plenty fine if you already have it. And stay away from the maft for tuning! People only use it to eliminate the stock maf and to vent. Besides that, they zero everything out and tune from an AFC or thru LINK.


Its only really down to this to make a 400whp car.

Completely stock motor (remove balance shafts*optional)
Upgraded cams (272's) *optional
Upgraded Fuel system (pump & Injectors)
Engine Management(AFC/DSMLINK)
Front mount
Upgraded turbo (20g, 50 Trim or other similar sized turbos)

 

[turbolover10]

+1
Stock rods/2g pistons will get you goin, thats what I plan on running and I'll be shooting for similar goals! If I were going to put my money into anything it would be switching out the afc for dsmlink.

 

[nholms]

To be honest, I'd put some money into DSMlink and sell off the SAFC. You are mussing some pretty sweet things like 2-step launch, anti-lag, and no-lift-shift. Not to mention the tuning and data logging are rediculously easy. Best mod I ever did!

 

[Puscifer]

good info guys, thanks a lot. i'll just do the general maintenence on the block and check out DSMlink -=P need to check the thrust bearings anyway so i'll make sure they're in check just to avoid any future CW thoughts and get that out of my head.

I greatly appreciate everyones input and sharing of what i should do, especially dsMonster - Hey, i'm a proven member now, Yay!

** I noticed DSMLink needs an EPROM unit to satisfy it's self unless i'm misreading ** any other suggestions - I live in a pretty remote place and i know EPROM's are out of 95 models if i'm not mistaken.

 

[dsm-onster]

good info guys, thanks a lot. i'll just do the general maintenence on the block and check out DSMlink -=P need to check the thrust bearings anyway so i'll make sure they're in check just to avoid any future CW thoughts and get that out of my head.

I greatly appreciate everyones input and sharing of what i should do, especially dsMonster - Hey, i'm a proven member now, Yay!

** I noticed DSMLink needs an EPROM unit to satisfy it's self unless i'm misreading ** any other suggestions - I live in a pretty remote place and i know EPROM's are out of 95 models if i'm not mistaken.

ECU+ is plenty for your needs. SAFC is fine. But if you feel like you want more control and have a decent logger to boot, take a look at dsmlink or ecu+. Dsmlink is pretty much the best next to a standalone, but ecu+ is perhaps the second best.

Ecu+ can control up to 780cc injectors and can dial back the timing so that you don't have so much timing advance inherent to other piggyback fuel controllers. It also has a way better logger than tunerstein or scanmaster.

I prefer DSMLink for it's special features that ecu+ doesn't have, control for even larger injectors, fantastic forum, and excellent logger. Here's the DSMLink Support Wiki . . . But, ecu+ is great and you don't need an eprom.

Again, you really don't need anything right now as your safc, 2g maf, logger(tunerstein is cheap), and 650cc injectors has taken guys to the 11s w/ an evo3 16g, arp headstuds, and a fmic. You could take a stab at it with these before purchasing any more tuning hardware.