turbo or cams?

[90highpsitsi]

Ok well i got around $550 bucks and I either want a Bullseye-power V trim turbo or
BC 280's. Right now i have on a 16g and I know i dont need 280's for a 16g but I have a 57trim but i would like to sell it and get a bullseye, because its a bolt on turbo. I am building a fully built motor and the whole bottom end is done. Next is the head. I know if i get 280's i will nedd springs but can i just run them with stock springs for the rest of the year? I wont be reving past 7000 for the rest of this year with the motor i have but next year i want to rev to 8500 or 9000. Also what springs should i go with? I have heard lots of good stuff about manley springs. Thanks a lot guys.

 

[reduceallpain]

i'm goin to end up getting 280s idk what brand yeah probably comp but i'd say go with the 280 the sound alone is amazing

 

[NATAS]

Sell the 57 trim and the 16g and get a PTE bolt on. I made the mistake of buying a Bullseye V-trim and I swear to you that when I got the turbo it was brand new and the shaft was already locked up! Well not fully locked up, but it didn't spin freely that's for sure. The Bullseye hotside really isn't that great of a design or that efficient either. I've read other people have had success with them, but in my case I got a dud. I then got a PTE 50 trim and have been really happy with it. Even at a mere 15psi it makes much better power than my e316g at 22psi. Sounds like you have quite the street terror coming together. Good luck with your build.

 

[absolute_DSM]

Dont buy cams for the sound. That is ridiculous.

If the car is a 2.0 street car I would advise against the 280s. I know even for a 2.3 they are not the best streetable cam. 280s were designed more for racing application strokers anyways I believe. I dont think youre going to see much of a gain past 272s.

 

[architechnik]

Dont buy cams for the sound. That is ridiculous.

If the car is a 2.0 street car I would advise against the 280s. I know even for a 2.3 they are not the best streetable cam. 280s were designed more for racing application strokers anyways I believe. I dont think youre going to see much of a gain past 272s.

+1

Remove your exhaust system and f' up your ISC motor if you're looking for obnoxious noise and poor idling.

IMHO the 280's are too much for anything used off the strip. Consider looking at different setups with different lobe profiles if you're looking for something for your new engine.

Keep in mind you will still need to swap spring setups, either double springs or just ones with greater response rate/stiffness.

Also consider porting and oversize valves to use your top end to its fullest without quite as much risk/adverse effects.

 

[90laserRSfwd]

I can tell you (because my head is in the machine shop right now) that BC 280's with stock springs won't last. I make one pull (on the dyno) and around 5800rpm I bent all 16 valves. life is grand !!!

 

[NATAS]

+1

Remove your exhaust system and f' up your ISC motor if you're looking for obnoxious noise and poor idling.

Bwahahaha! But it sounds sooooooo good! It idles like a built V8. Yeah 280's are ridiculous for your set-up. Just leave the stock cams in as they don't get restrictive till highish power levels anyway. An upgraded turbo and fuel set-up will most definitely net you better gains and your car will still run good. If you stick 280's in it you're going to have a hell of a time getting it to run right and I'd say it's a distinct probability that your car will make less power with the massive cams then if you left the stockers in. Maybe the very top end will be a little stronger, but you said you're not going to be revving that high anyway which I think is very smart. The 4G isn't a rev happy motor by nature, so get it dialed in with a good sized turbo and then see what you need.

I've seen way too many DSMs' that guys dropped big cams into and 9 out of 10 of them ran like ass and didn't make good power at all. Then there's me who runs around with a pretty much stock motor and a 50 trim at lowish boost levels and can still beat almost all of them at the track. Throwing parts at your car doesn't make it fast. Taking the time to learn and make educated decisions definitely does. I took 5 years to put my current car together, but even with the little 50 trim it's way faster and runs way better than either of my 1st 2 DSMs that I hastily dropped $8-$10k worth of parts into. Look at the upgrade paths on all the DSM sites; cams are damn near last on the list. That info is coming from reputable DSMers, so definitely consider it. Good luck with it.

 

[Black_Bullet]

In my opinion our engines need cams after about 300whp to really make good use of whatever turbo its running. Under this point there not needed as there wouldnt really be a big enough turbo on it with enough air flow to need cams.
Not to mention when the flow really goes up where the need for sheet metal intake manifolds and tubular exhaust manifolds and head porting come into play then cams would really be needed to take full advantage top end.
Even just with a 16g 30whp gains have been found from proper cam upgrades... Now yes some cars can run/idle like ass after cam upgrades, but these cars probably have horrid tunes and never really ran good to begin with, or are running cams bigger than the application needed. Its all in proper selection and tune to get the best results.
Now despite that its not uncommon for ppl to have made stock internal 4g63s make over 500whp w/ proper turbo/tune. Why hold back so much air flow by not getting cams, so as I stated, I believe any engine over 300whp deserves a good set of cams...

 

[90highpsitsi]

I think a 57 trim is plenty big for 280's. But maybe you are right, maybe i dont need 280's right now, but next year i want to rev to 8500, 9000 next year just like i said in the post. And i am aware that i need springs thats why I asked about what to get. Im not gonna be able to do that with 272's still making power. The car is not a daily driver. I only drive it every once in a while. Its more a track car. usually only take it out when some idiot with a v8 or honda wants to race me. Im not sure what to do. If you have anymore suggestions let me know

 

[90highpsitsi]

Oh and one more thing. I have dsm link and a wideband so tuning isnt a problem

 

[Boo5t_Addict]

Why don't you just wait, save up more cash, and keep thinking about it? No need to rush into a decision. You'll be much happier after soem solid thought.

 

[absolute_DSM]

I make one pull (on the dyno) and around 5800rpm I bent all 16 valves. life is grand !!!

Ouch. The proof is in the repair bill.

280s with stock springs just to be clear?

 

[jlado13]

Not sure what your numbers or goals are, but you should be able to turn some good times on stock cams. The way I understand it, a stock head is good down into the 11-12's range. Therefore, turbo seems more logical to me at this point. Someone correct me if I'm wrong please..

 

[Talesin]

The 2Gs can use a good set of cams earlier than the 1G turbos... 1Gs have higher lift to begin with.
And I personally wouldn't risk 272s on the stock springs, much less 280s. That longer duration should be just enough that if you get ANY float, you'll get a bent valve. And running 7000rpm on stock springs with 272s is already a foregone conclusion that you'll destroy your valvetrain in seconds, if not WELL before (while revving up to that 7K mark). 280s and expecting it to not eat crap is wishful thinking... you'd do better to expect to finish the car with your lottery winnings.

Personally, I'm running a set of Crower springs on my stock cams, just for the extra peace of mind that they won't float if I run at 7K for extended periods.


Short version: Get the turbo. Wait on cams until you actually NEED them, and buy the springs at the same time. If you're building the head now, put the springs on now in preparation. It's a lot easier to swap out the cams later (when you have the money) than to re-do the head and HG AGAIN just to put on the new springs.

If you're going for a fully built engine, forget the turbo, run your 16g for the time being. Put on a set of lightened valves (undercut/swirl polished, like RRE sells), some GOOD valveseals, and a set of upgraded springs. You can do the cams at your next timing belt change (it's easy, then) if you actually NEED them, and the turbo in the interim as it's a simple bolt-on.

 

[Black_Bullet]

The 2Gs can use a good set of cams earlier than the 1G turbos... 1Gs have higher lift to begin with.
And I personally wouldn't risk 272s on the stock springs, much less 280s. That longer duration should be just enough that if you get ANY float, you'll get a bent valve. And running 7000rpm on stock springs with 272s is already a foregone conclusion that you'll destroy your valvetrain in seconds, if not WELL before (while revving up to that 7K mark). 280s and expecting it to not eat crap is wishful thinking... you'd do better to expect to finish the car with your lottery winnings.

Personally, I'm running a set of Crower springs on my stock cams, just for the extra peace of mind that they won't float if I run at 7K for extended periods.


Short version: Get the turbo. Wait on cams until you actually NEED them, and buy the springs at the same time. If you're building the head now, put the springs on now in preparation. It's a lot easier to swap out the cams later (when you have the money) than to re-do the head and HG AGAIN just to put on the new springs.

If you're going for a fully built engine, forget the turbo, run your 16g for the time being. Put on a set of lightened valves (undercut/swirl polished, like RRE sells), some GOOD valveseals, and a set of upgraded springs. You can do the cams at your next timing belt change (it's easy, then) if you actually NEED them, and the turbo in the interim as it's a simple bolt-on.

Theres plenty of ppl who have taken their stock heads with 264s/272s/ and fp2s to 8500 rpm without valve float... 280s will be a different story though, but i wouldnt be scared to run 272s or fp2s to 8k as my friend did this all the time. Hell a guy local with a vr4 named Tom ( a moderator on this forum who made like 400+whp w/ a 16g) He told me he took his stock head 4g63 with Fp1s all the way to 9k consistently with no issues...And i can take my stock head ( stock cams ) to 8500 no prob. I guess its a matter of how good the condition of the head is in to begin with but my head was rebuilt 12k ago and has 3rd revision lifters in it.
But why over rev anyways, just shift where you make the most power and down worry about trying to tackle 9 thousand rpms...

 

[HighBoostLaser]

I think you should get the 280's Zach just go with it btw ya'll this car as he stated is mostly a track car and has a fully built bottom end already and he trying to build a race head

 

[1gDSM4g63]

Dont buy cams for the sound. That is ridiculous.

If the car is a 2.0 street car I would advise against the 280s. I know even for a 2.3 they are not the best streetable cam. 280s were designed more for racing application strokers anyways I believe. I dont think youre going to see much of a gain past 272s.

I agree, that is ridiculous going for 280/280 cams on a 16g or a 57 trim. First off you'll see no gain, 280/280 and even 272/272 are for huge turbo that have lag. The cams kick in when the turbo kicks in turbo at high rpms. And if you do put 280/280 in you'll destroy your engine and it'll probably stall during idle on a completely stock engine. You'll need to get valves, dual springs, get you head built, and among other things you'll have to rebuilt your engine for your to take it.

Just check out the TECH Upgrade Path. Don't just jump to conclusions; bigger turbo, more aggressive cams, etc... without thinking of the basic have-to-do firsts like cold air intake, fuel, intercooler, etc...

 

[HighBoostLaser]

he will be running a 20g or a gt28r turbo so the cams will be fine

 

[neoviper]

IMO, the 16g he's running now will make him good enough power in the meantime. While I agree that 280's are a little bit too agressive, I don't see no problem running 272's on a stock head. As long as the head is in decent shape he won't have any problems running them as long as he's not revving the piss out of his engine. I would hold off on the turbo.

 

[HighBoostLaser]

but its a race car he has another talon tsi with dsm link and everything (my old one) that came with car and pte 680 3" turbo back and 18g as a DD this will be his Track car.

 

[dsm-onster]

The v-trim with a 2.0L block is going to yield mucho compressor surge! Look how "horizontal" the map is.

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The surge line is terrible for small displacement. It is doubtful 2.4PR, or 20 psi, at 4000rpms will not net 30lbs/min even with cams that bring your VE to peak at that point. This puts you to the left of the surge line. Because, it is also entirely likely that you will reach over this boost by 4000rpms. The v-trim is a great compressor for a larger engine and a semi-mild build. Great for a 4.3 syclone/typhoon.

A non-built 6 bolt block, which you already have, can handle over 500whp. About the limit of a v-trim. I don't think a v-trim merits a "built" 6-bolt.

Get a set of 272s if you want a track car that can be driven on the street. Stock springs are fine. . . if you've checked the spring pressure. If not, go with what talesin says. Get a good set of singles. It's a slight gamble if you don't. And you may want more cam later. A set of manley singles do very fine with my fp2X cams. Which have a more aggresive ramp rate than the fp2s or 272s.

My suggestion. Take your 16g to the limit with a cam upgrade. If you're still going to "build" your 6 bolt because for some reason over 500whp is not enough for you, then a turbo upgrade is easy to do later (just like talesin mentions).

You talk about reving to 9K and taking on hondas and such, but you havn't mentioned a horsepower goal. . . The 57 trim is good for 45 lbs/min.

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So many have achieved 45-46 lbs/min with stock cams and a stock rev limit.

Why do you think you a 57 trim is "plenty big" for 280s? A 50-trim doesn't merit 280s, IMHO. And flows quite a bit more!

All you need are 272s. They still hold good VE to 8500-9000 rpms. Fp2s, Fp2Xs, Fp3s, fp3Xs, fp4s, BC272s, 272 regrinds, HKS 272s. They all have nearly identical duration. They all do very well for a track car. And still leave enough spool at 3K to be a streetable car; cam changes drastically influence spool speed and torque curves.

 

[HighBoostLaser]

He is keeping the 57 trim i guess so he says now and also hes gonna be building for like 8's and 900whp so i dont know i guess hopefully he will get on and tell you

 

[dsmconvict]

He is keeping the 57 trim i guess so he says now and also hes gonna be building for like 8's and 900whp so i dont know i guess hopefully he will get on and tell you

Wow...I hope he has some money to burn.....900whp and 8's on a 57 trim...good luck that car better be a coke can and a miracle all in one.

 

[coryd]

for my race/street head i did a full port and polish, BC springs and retainers, BC 280 cams, BC 1mm over nitrated coated valves. I havent fired it up yet but we will see how it turns out

 

[HighBoostLaser]

let us know ^^