very long..sputter under boost, not a boost leak. fixed almost everything.

[PimpDrive]

Hi all, first off I would like to say this is a long one and I have done a boost leak test about 2 times a day for like 3 weeks now since I replaced the engine(every time i replace something I do a boost leak test). Last year I had a problem with my car sputtering under boost, any amount of boost, even 1 psi, and it would continue to sputter until I turned it off for a few mins. So basically I had to drive my car nice and slow so it would never go into boost.

So after months of confusion and fixing stuff, I still had the problem, I checked compression and 3 cylinders were strong but one was 130. pulled the head off and it looked as if a small set screw or something went into the motor, beat up one piston, then popped out, went into another cylinder and did the same thing, and then it destroyed my new evo316g turbo. So I thought I found my problem, a bad engine, maybe preignition or something from hot spots on the head or pistons throwing everything out of whack.

So I finally got a new motor together, block, pistons, head, gaskets, almost the whole nine yards. started it up, made sure everything was good, took it for a spin and the same thing happened, small amount of boost and it would start to sputter and putter as if was running on 2 cylinders. got it home, did a boost leak check, biss was leaking, tb shaft seal was leaking. so i replaced and fixed and it still does it.

What I have done so far was, replaced the coil, plugs, plug wires, isc, tb, tps, map sensor on top of intake mani, injectors,o2 sensor, fuel pressure regulator, fuel filter, all the gaskets,coolant, oil, tranny and trans case fluid, alternator, cam position sensor(on the intake cam sprocket)all that on top of the new long block i built.

I have a 14b with a tubular exhaust manifold on it, tubular o2 housing, 3in exhaust with no cat, boost gauge, fuel pressure gauge on the filter, I have done the "TABOO" vacuum line delete, except I did not delete the stock "boost controller". this method I found here

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198327&highlight=taboo

I also took out the AC stuff when I put the new motor in, The ac never worked anyway, So the harness that connects to the ac compressor is just zipped tied securely in the engine bay.

The things I have not replaced was the coolant temp sensor, mas air flow sensor, air filter, ecu( I took it out and inspected it, it looked as if no caps popped and everything looked good), fuel pump, the wiring harness for the motor, knock sensor, thats all I can think of really.

Like I have said, Do boost leak tests on a daily basis to 25 psi, the only thing that leaks is the pcv and it bleeds of very very very slowly. I have routed the vacuum like directly to the stock fpr( which seems to help a little), So anyways, now I can get it to about 5-7ish psi, it sometimes does not sputter, but 95% of the time it does. its very annoying.

I HAVE A AUTOXRAY EZ-SCAN 5000! (does not read knock.. ghey)

So, let me tell you what this thing has told me, even though it does not give me as much data as I would like. After starting the car and letting it sit till it gets to operating temp it reads

Fuel system 1 = closed loop
load value = 20%
coolant temp = 185 deg F
short term fuel trim = 0.5%
long term fuel trim = 0.5%
engine rpm = 780 rpm
vehicle speed = 0 mph
ignition timing adv = 7.0 deg
intake air temp = 69 deg
air flow rate 0.4 lb/min
throttle position = 0%
oxegen sensor = 0.100-0.800 V(it bounces back and forth)


So after driving the car, I get it into boost(5ish psi), it starts sputtering, but instead of turning the car off to make it stop sputtering/missing(sounds like the car is not firing 2 cylinders) I blip the throttle a good 5 times over about a min and the sputtering goes away. But then I have high idle around 2-2.5k and the scanner reads


Fuel system 1 = closed loop
load value = 20%
coolant temp = 205 deg F
short term fuel trim = 7-8%
long term fuel trim = 7-8%
engine rpm = 2000-2500 rpm
vehicle speed = 0 mph
ignition timing adv = 25ish deg(give or take a few)
intake air temp = 90 deg
air flow rate 0.4 lb/min
throttle position = 4%
oxegen sensor = 0.100-0.800 V(it bounces back and forth)


Also, when I do a boost leak check, I get no leaky noise other than the pcv a little, but I get a very faint "dripping noise" somewhere in the engine( i have a small oil leak somewhere if that could have anything to do with it), Im going to find the leak once I am no longer preoccupied with getting it running right first. But is this "dripping noise" normal when doing a boost leak check? and should it be used for diagnosing my problem?

So If anyone could pinpoint the problem it would save me from blowing money on(try this, that was my problem)parts, this problem has cost me too much and i was already broke before hand. please ask whatever questions you may have, it has had me stumped for over a year.. I will have one of my lady friends bake and send you a bunch of cookies, or Maybe I can send some proven to be not defective 2g parts.. haha, if anyone can figure this out, I would appreciative and think of something.

I can take vids or pics if anyone would like, and if it comes down to it, where can a cheap logger? I do not know anything about where to get a logger, all I know is that I need one.

THANKS!
Jerm

 

[PimpDrive]

PS: the fuel pressure was at 40psi with the vacuum line directly connected to the stock fpr when the engine was warm.

 

[Timechg]

I was running into the same problem after my engine rebuild. It seemed like a boost leak or a misfire. I checked my coil packs/wires and plugs but they were fine. It turned out that I had a bad O2 sensor even though it was brand new. Easy way to check to see if it is that is unplug the O2 sensor (but not for long because it will be dumping fuel into the cylinders b/c it's not telling the computer to do anything). Do you have a MBC? or are you using the factory boots control solenoid still?

 

[c4uldr0n]

what type of airflow count do you get from your MAF? Are the plug new and do you have them gapped to the proper spec? When getting psi, what is your AFR, sounds like you might have a leak that is causing it to run rich possibly.

 

[PimpDrive]

the o2 sensor was replaced like 4 days ago and the scanner shows me .100 to .800 volts, it jumps around its a narrow band, brand new though. The air flow rate sits at 0.4 - 1.1 lb/min at idle depending on how high the engine is idling, .4 at like 750rpm and 1.1 at like 2k rpm. when it get it into boost, I want to say i saw the scanner read 10ish lbs/min at around 5-7 psi (its hard to get a accurate reading trying to look at the scanner and the boost gauge and driving at the same time), but it does ramp up. I have a set new ngk-r bpr6ek gapped at .032, I put them in yesterday, those replaced the bpr6es gapped at .028. The bpr6es plugs only had like 2 hours of run time on them, I replaced them because I thought I maybe fouled them out. And as of for a afr, I couldn't tell you, I dont have a wideband, and I have nothing to log with. Where can I acquire a cheap data logger for a 2g, preferably one that can read knock count. This autoxray scanner is very slow, maybe like 2 frames a sec, and it doesnt tell me enough info/data.

Mas air meter maybe? transistor pack or fuel pump maybe? I wish i could see the fuel pressure while driving, but the gauge is on the filter. The only cel I get is rear o2 heater not working, but thats cause i took it out cause I have no cat.

Im very interested in this "dripping noise" from the engine while doing a boost leak test, I have gave it some thought and cant seem to explain why I would get a dripping noise when I do a boost leak test? Idk, its very confusing, but maybe that can lead me to where I can find a boost leak if I have one.

thanks for the replies and and any other help you have!

 

[viprez586]

My best guess would be your MAF, try disconnecting it and see if theres any difference. Otherwise if you know someone with one that works try swapping it and see if theres any difference.

Take a peek at your knock sensor too and see if theres goo coming off of the back or even non-exsistant. If there is replace that.

Some food for thought, pick up a cheap Palm One off of Ebay and download MMcD, great program! It'll show you knock and more people will be familiar with the values as opposed to the ones you gave us.

G'Luck man!

 

[DSM nOOb]

if you did the vacuum line removal why would you be getting a boost leak from the pcv

i thought that the whole point of it was to remove all the emissions crap and block off the egr valve.

do you remember any specific change you did when the car first started acting up.

Has the car been doing this since you've owned it

 

[PimpDrive]

I am going to unplug the maf this weekend when I get some time from work. also the knock sensor, when i put the new engine in it looked fine but ill double check.

I was looking for a bit about the mmcd, and I read that ist for 1g only, correct me if im wrong. I was looking at the scan master or even dsmlink, the link would be everything i would ever need but right now i cant spend that much on a logger.

the pcv is leaking a very mall amount, and from what i understand, it is supposed to, correct me if I am wrong. i thought the point of crankcase ventilation was to relieve blow by pressure so the pressure wouldnt find its way out, like through a gasket or something, so I did not block it. its nothing but like a 4in hose from my understanding its not a issue.

Nope, it has not been doing it since i bought the car, a few months last year before I tore the motor out, and about a few weeks since i got the new motor in. I am also just "test driving it" to see if the prob went away after I replace stuff on it, other than that it just sits in the garage.

thanks for all the help, any other thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[PimpDrive]

Ok, So I took the maf out and looked inside and it was pretty much covered in oil/sludge, from the likes of the crankcase venting in the intake. So I picked up a maf from a guy around town, was clean, hook it up to my car, I start it up, I get on the freeway, put it in 3rd gear and at WOT it doesnt start missing, I drop it in 4th gear, no problems all the way to 11psi all good. I get off the freeway and come to a stop and the car is idleing at like 2500 rpm. I would Blip the throttle and the idle would go down a little bit maybe 500rpm, then after a few mins it just went down to 750rpm at idle. Then driving it around it would go back up. Anyways, so I make another pull in 2nd gear, WOT, and it starts missing again. Idk, Does anyone think it could be the ecu?? Do bad ecu's have weird symptoms like this? and could anyone tell me how to test the ecu? I also looked at the knock sensor and it looked fine, I am still in the process of getting a logger, I am just having trouble finding a cable.

 

[DSM4me44]

if you did the vacuum line removal why would you be getting a boost leak from the pcv

i thought that the whole point of it was to remove all the emissions crap and block off the egr valve.

The pcv valve helps remove excess crank case pressure. The emissions removal doesn't involve the pcv valve.

Ok, So I took the maf out and looked inside and it was pretty much covered in oil/sludge, from the likes of the crankcase venting in the intake. So I picked up a maf from a guy around town, was clean, hook it up to my car, I start it up, I get on the freeway, put it in 3rd gear and at WOT it doesnt start missing, I drop it in 4th gear, no problems all the way to 11psi all good. I get off the freeway and come to a stop and the car is idleing at like 2500 rpm. I would Blip the throttle and the idle would go down a little bit maybe 500rpm, then after a few mins it just went down to 750rpm at idle. Then driving it around it would go back up. Anyways, so I make another pull in 2nd gear, WOT, and it starts missing again. Idk, Does anyone think it could be the ecu?? Do bad ecu's have weird symptoms like this? and could anyone tell me how to test the ecu? I also looked at the knock sensor and it looked fine, I am still in the process of getting a logger, I am just having trouble finding a cable.

Take off your maf and see if theres more residue in it. It could be a faulty plug as well.
As far as the ecu, I had a problem with the car doing something funky that made the bov sound wierd and the car to stutter. At the time I was using an SAFC to tune with and one of the wires came undone, going to the ecu. You won't have the exact problem if you haven't fooled with your ecu. The easiest way to test it, would be to put another ecu in to try. You can use a manual or automatic one, doesn't matter.

 

[oldman]

PimpDrive, don't create multiple threads of the same topic, next time pm a moderator and ask to have your thread moved instead, your threads has been merged.

if you did the vacuum line removal why would you be getting a boost leak from the pcv

i thought that the whole point of it was to remove all the emissions crap and block off the egr valve.

do you remember any specific change you did when the car first started acting up.

Has the car been doing this since you've owned it

Like already mentioned above, leave your PCV valve alone. Also, please use proper sentence structure, punctuation and caps when posting in the tech sections of the forum.

 

[silvermitsu10]

are you noticing that it's burning rich or lean after you drive it in boost and the sputtering starts? You can usually smell if it is even if you have no other way of telling. Mine is doing something very similar minus the idle. But I'm running rich as hell. I gotta get a wideband and a proper tune before I'll even take it out again. You may look into the tps as well. The idle could possibly be caused by that. But I don't know of any way to test it Maybe someone else could chime in to help out with that.

 

[SOADweskey]

Here is a link to free logging software for the 2G. You just need to get a compatible palm pilot off of e-bay or anywhere else. The only expensive part is the OBDII to serial adapter which will set you back about $90.

http://students.db.erau.edu/~szabafab/stein/

There is no way to directly log knock with a 2G logger unless you go to DSM link or another more involved system. But you can monitor your timing and if it goes down suddenly then it is usually being pulled due to knock.

 

[PimpDrive]

Sorry about the double post, I Posted the thread and realized I did not put it in the problem diagnosis forum. Sincerest apologies oldman, and thank you.

As of for it running rich or lean when it starts to have the problem, it is hard for me to tell, the scan tool I have is very slow with how many "frames" I get per sec. While looking at the scanner right before the problem occurs, the o2 voltage is bouncing around like it should. I don't have a logger yet so its kind of hard to say exactly whats its doing right before the problem. I cant smell anything unusual when its at idle, or when it is in boost either. Also when the car is having its "missing problem" the o2 voltage sits at .020 volts and doesnt bounce around like it should, so it is running rich.

I did a compression test when the engine was cold and I got 160-165 across all 4, and from my understanding thats not the greatest, but not bad. I am also Trying to get my hands on a leak down tester and try that also.

My brother has a wideband in his typhoon that he is going to pull so we can put it on my car to see how things are going. I am also going to change out the coolant temp sensor, even though it seems to be working properly(I can see it working on the scan tool) A local dsm guy said the sensor can do some pretty strange stuff.

I am going to take everything back apart to inspect it and test it again. I tested my old isc and it had one bad coil, and I was reading on the forums here that a bad isc can fry your ecu, so I am going to test that again also. I am going to get a logger and try to pick up a ecu cheap. And maybe a transistor for the coil pack?

Thank you all for your replies, it is greatly appreciated and I will keep updating.

THANKS!

 

[mach4g63t]

I had the same problem with my car because the bonehead I bought it from removed the upper honeycomb from the MAS. I didn't realize that was a problem until I was start getting lots of sputter in the upper end of my RPM range while under boost. I would say check out that MAS.

 

[poooch]

check you boost solenoid

 

[PimpDrive]

Ok, so I checked the mas again to see if there was any residue and there was not any. I checked out the plug and it looks fine, I dont know how you could test the pulg so I didnt, but it looked fine. I figured out the high idle problem, it was the cable too tight, it only happens when the car is warmed up so I thought, since the car is a 95 and has 180k on the clock, maybe the cable is just so old it expands a whole lot. When cold the car idled fine, and i adjusted the cable accordingly, and when the engine is warm, I had to loosen it up a little more than half an inch to get it to idle at 800. I drove it around for about 10 more mins and still had a idle at about 1200 so I put it back in the garage and adjusted the cable to as loose as it would go. seems ok now.

As of for the mystery misfire, While i was driving it around today, I got it on the freeway and opened it up in 3rd gear getting it to about 16psi and had no problems, but while driving around on side streets, sometimes getting it into a few pounds of boost will make the problem occur. For instance, about 5 mins after driving around I had the problem with the car at atmosphere or maybe 1psi, which I had to turn the car off and turn it back on to get it to stop misfiring.

Also while adjusting the throttle cable, when I loosened the cable all the way, the car started missing a little bit, as of if it was only 1 cyl missing instead of 2, but it just went away after 5 secs.

So I am going to replace my brand new plugs and wires once again, I am going to get plugs with a shorter gap to see if that helps, I am running .032 right now and am going to get bpr6es at .028. Its just tough because I cant seem to find anyone that stocks these in Milwaukee and I have to order them.

And how could the boost solenoid cause a problem like this? It is kind of strange how my car got to about 16ish psi today, it was holding at 10 and then creped up to 16/17lbs. and when I check it do I just unplug the connector and reroute the vac lines?

Thanks

 

[DSMopar]

Take the cable off and squirt some silicone lube down it, done.

This may be a shot out in left field but have you checked the EGR? Perhaps blowing open under boost (shouldn't)?

 

[PimpDrive]

Sure, I will get some silicon lube and try, and my egr is blocked off etc.

thanks

 

[el guapo]

what kind of plug are you running and what do you have the gap at ?

 

[PimpDrive]

They are ngk bpr6 something, not sure exactly what number but here is a link. they are gapped at .032


http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=NGK&MfrPartNumber=1128&PartType=960&PTSet=A

I am thinking that it could be the ignition because the fact that sometimes it feels like only one cyl is missing and sometimes it feels like 2 of them are missing, and when it misses, the scanner tells me its running rich. Still waiting on my bpr6es's in the mail though. If it is not that, does anyone think it could be the transistor pack? or maybe even a weak battery?

thanks

 

[lenny 15]

.32 is not a good gap for our cars. The correct gap is .30 for boost under 16psi and .28 for higher boost.

 

[turbosax2]

Stick with .028.

 

[oldman]

.32 is not a good gap for our cars. The correct gap is .30 for boost under 16psi and .28 for higher boost.

Those are huge gaps, stick with .028".

 

[DSM4me44]

Make sure you have

NGK brp6es

and NOT

NGK brp6es-11

Most autostores have the -11 in their system for our cars. The -11's are for non turbos.