I planned on getting all neccesary mods to allow me to run 15-16 psi

[blackmirage]

Ok, I planned on getting all neccesary mods to allow me to run 15-16 psi on my 90 TSI AWD 5spd, while on the stock 14b. I happened to pick up a FMIC on a really really really good deal, so I'd also be putting that on as well.. However my friend seems to think that I should put the FMIC on and not buy a boost controller, manifold, 02 housing, and logger, etc etc to turn up the boost- he feels I should just buy a Evo III Big 16g slap it on there and leave it at stock boost, and that that right there would make me faster and I wouldnt need all the other stuff, but then as I get the other stuff that will allow me to turn up the boost, then I can, but atleast this way I still have the larger turbo... I feel my way is safer, but am I wrong? are we both right? Please help settle this for us.. Thanks.

 

[pwayzjellyroll]

I don't see how just slapping the evo III big 16g without any other supporting mods would help. You will still be running the same amount of boost, and I believe that it will take you longer to hit full boost since the turbo itself requires more air. Doesn't the big 16g require more fuel at stock boost? Or am I wrong here, if I am please do correct me.

 

[marcmsj]

There's no point in getting the bigger turbo without the supporting mods first, you'll barely notice an improvement (if any at all).

This site offers a very good upgrade path, I would suggest following that for optimal horsepower gains while being safe.

 

[mygsx2120]

[QUOTEThis site offers a very good upgrade path, I would suggest following that for optimal horsepower gains while being safe.][/QUOTE]

+1. You were right, your friend is wrong. They are called tuner cars, because it is all about the tuning!

 

[spooln4fun]

+2 you were right friend was wrong........

All the mods you purchase now, can carry on if you would deicde to upgrade your turbo down the road...have him go back in history a bit and find that worlds fastest 14b car, that would atleast prove your point

 

[toyotaturbo]

Getting your supporting mods done first should be priority before EVER putting on a bigger turbo. Especially get that logger, even if you don't do any of the other stuff first.

 

[Splitpi]

First off, horsepower is a function of air flow measured in cfm or lb/m.

hp = (Airflow)/(AirFuelRatio * BSFC/60)

With BSFC being an engine specific value that can very from engine to engine... but usually about 0.55 for turbos.

It is not a measure of pressure or psi that the turbo is outputing. Much like if you are using an air compressor and an impact wrench rated for 4.0 cfm at 90 psi. At that settings it delivers 250 ft/lbs of torque. If I only supply 2.0 cfm at 90 psi, the wrench may only deliver 1/3rd the power.

So if we look at the equation we see fuel is accounted for in two locations, the Air Fuel Ratio and in BSFC or Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (think of it as a measure of efficiency in your engine... or how well the fuel is converted to create power after subtracting all the parasitic engine losses, etc..).

There is also another way of calculating HP

hp = ((Manifold Pressure) * (Volumemetric Efficiency of turbo) * (RPM/2) * (Engine Displacement (Ci))) / (639.6 * (460 + (Manifold Temp))) / ((Air Fuel Ratio) * (BSFC/60))

What this equation is doing is determining how optimally the turbo is running to produce the power. To go back to the compressor analogy. The tool will not operate if the pressure drops either. And this second equation is a different way of looking at the same equation. As air flow required is a function of pressure and engine air consumption.

So now that I have tangented slightly, lets get back to the fuel issue. The reason you MAY need more supporting mods is because even at the same psi, the turbo's will have a different amount of air flow, cfm and be operating at a different volumemetric efficiency. Thus, it will cause the engine to make more power, which will either lean or richen your fuel (if it were kept the same for both types of turbos). Therefore, it is important to do the all the pre-mods. There are exceptions ofcourse where it will work just fine. But in a general sense, you must account for the changes in air flow.

 

[FL_TalonTsi]

if you do choose to go your friends way and get a big evo3, make sure to get the supporting mods like everyone else has been saying. by supporting mods, and evo3 would use about 550cc injectors, and a bigger fuel pump like a walbro 190lph. you could get a walbro 255lph, theres definitly nothing wrong with more fuel but to accompany that 255 you would need an afpr. then if you had all the supporting mods and a bigger turbo you could get that exhaust manifold and o2 housing you want because you could get the best performance out of them with a bigger turbo

 

[sd_ff22]

the 14B is a very capable turbo.
there are so many other things you can do to your set up that will only make that turbo run even better.
have you ported your turbine inlet, o2 housing and ex manifold???
if not, thats free horse power thats tied up right there!
Don't spend the money on a new turbo that you could spend on supporting mods with out useing what you already have to the fullest.

14B =

 

[sd_ff22]

Oh, I forgot.
you are right and your friend is wrong X3

and FL_TalonTsi, dont forget that you would need a fuel managment system, like a safc too. and the 550s are the BARE MINIMUM I would ever put with an E316G.

 

[shootin4Nines]

Yeah, I agree w/ everyone else. The 14b is very capable (do a search for "acrtic tsi," he ran a 12.1 or something like that on the 14b.) And just buying a bigger turbo isn't going to do much especially if you keep it at stock boost levels. With the $700 you save on the turbo you can buy some injectors, mbc, fuel pump, and adjustable FPR. Then buy DSMLink, clutch (i recommend ACT), a good turbo back and just go with a ported o2 and ported 2g manifold and you will be happy.

 

[FL_TalonTsi]

yes sd ff22, you're correct you would need a fuel management system like a safc, but he said hes going to be running stock boost so whats the point of running bigger than 550's on stock boost level?

 

[tkelly27]

It's a very common misconseption that bigger turbos make more power. Bigger turbos are capeable of moving more air, but without the rest of the goodies to to allow that air to move into and out of the engine, a bigger turbo is a waste. Furthermore, once you've gotten it going into and out of, you need fuel to compensate for that.

You will be 10,000x's happier with a turbo back 3" (3" DP, cat, muffler, etc.) on a 14b than a stock exhaust on any upgraded turbo. If you don't believe me, save your stock exhaust for when you finally get a bigger turbo, and make sure you take your friend for a ride. I can't say any other mods, because I really haven't done that many, but if you're smart about it, you can get mods that will work well with a 14b all the way up to a monster. Many of the same mods that help you max out a 14b can be modified to utilize bigger turbos.

Good news, you were right!

 

[JST2FST]

If I were you I would get all the supporting mods first and then get a bigger turbo if you want one. What you dont what to have happen is for you to get a 16g first and then get all your supporting mods only to realize that you want an even bigger turbo now. They only way I would say get the turbo first is if there was something wrong with your turbo, other then that get the supporting mods first and then get a bigger turbo. Oh by the way, a DSM with a 14b, supporting mods and a tune will be faster then a DSM with just a 16g and a FMIC.

 

[sd_ff22]

yes sd ff22, you're correct you would need a fuel management system like a safc, but he said hes going to be running stock boost so whats the point of running bigger than 550's on stock boost level?

whats the point of spending all the money on injectors, fuel pump, and a E316G and running stock boost??

I say again.

14B =

 

[FL_TalonTsi]

well there is a point of spending money on injectors and a fuel pump, because those can help your 14b very nicely, but if you're going to run stock boost stick with the 14b, no point for a big 16g

 

[sd_ff22]

well there is a point of spending money on injectors and a fuel pump, because those can help your 14b very nicely, but if you're going to run stock boost stick with the 14b, no point for a big 16g

Precisely

 

[shootin4Nines]

I dont think he is going to run stock boost. His buddy told him that if he wanted to make power, instead of turning up the boost on his 14b, to buy a 16g and run stock boost levels. I told him to get some fuel mods so he could run the 14b harder. At least, thats the way I understood it. If I was mistaken I apologize

 

[blackmirage]

Ok, I KNEW IT.. Wow thats alot of replies on this one guys.. Thanks alot... Shootin your right.. he said not to waste the money on basically begining to explore the potential of the 14b on the stock fuels system, and then later on an upgraded one and then again later with an upgraded motor. IE Pushing it to its limits in small steps- His line of thinking was to just slap on the big boy and let heads roll and whatever needed to be upgraded would be upgraded as time went along.. Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no, thats why his talon is toast right now. So thank you guys, I do appreciate it.