Base Timing

[Bizarre]

First I'll start with the setup and car.

This is a 98 Eagle Talon TSI awd, with a 6 bolt swap in it.

From what I have found on here from searching, I cannot adjust base timing on my 98 car because I do not have the clip/port to ground out and neutralize the computer from automatically re-adjusting the base timing. Is this correct?

Which brings me to my other question. If I cannot adjust base timing, how would I determine the position I would place the 1G CAS I have since it's adjustable? I have yet to drive the car since the swap and don't plan on doing so until I have all this sorted out.

Any help would greatly be appreciated.

As of right now, it's running on the stock injectors, with the 98 computer.

 

[JayRolla]

This is a great question. You can adjust the timing only problem is when you reading with the timing light the line will jump around so you will never see your real timing. Let me try and research a little and see if I can find something.

 

[Bizarre]

This is a great question. You can adjust the timing only problem is when you reading with the timing light the line will jump around so you will never see your real timing. Let me try and research a little and see if I can find something.

Thanks. I appreciate your help.

 

[Splitpi]

You can check your timing... the 97+ Cam Sensors are non-adjustable so the timing is fixed and CANNOT be adjusted. The 96- Cams Sensors (it may even be just the 95 and less) are adjustable so you CAN adjust the timing.

To view timing, you need to ground a wire.
1) Bring car to operational temps
2) Connect the timing light
3) With the engine stopped, connect a jumper wire to the terminal for ignition-timing adjustment (located in the engine compartment), and ground it.
4) Start Car
5) Check Timing ~5 degrees +- 3

I suspect with yoru 6-bolt swap you can adjust the timing and you should follow the 1G timing adjustment guide here:
http://www.plymouthlaser.com/timin.htm

 

[Bizarre]

You can check your timing... the 97+ Cam Sensors are non-adjustable so the timing is fixed and CANNOT be adjusted. The 96- Cams Sensors (it may even be just the 95 and less) are adjustable so you CAN adjust the timing.

To view timing, you need to ground a wire.
1) Bring car to operational temps
2) Connect the timing light
3) With the engine stopped, connect a jumper wire to the terminal for ignition-timing adjustment (located in the engine compartment), and ground it.
4) Start Car
5) Check Timing ~5 degrees +- 3

I suspect with yoru 6-bolt swap you can adjust the timing and you should follow the 1G timing adjustment guide here:
http://www.plymouthlaser.com/timin.htm

Ok I don't think you got my question.

From what I have read and search on here, the 98's do not have the ignition/timing terminal you're talking about here;
"3) With the engine stopped, connect a jumper wire to the terminal for ignition-timing adjustment (located in the engine compartment), and ground it."

I've come to the conclusion that as I sit right now, with no aftermarket type of engine management and a factory computer, I cannot change my base timing because the ECU will compensate for the change because I cannot jump the computer via that terminal and groud it out. Fine, I understand that. My question is, if I can't do that, how can I determine the position to place the 1G CAS I'm using since it is adjustable? That's my question.

 

[Splitpi]

Ok I don't think you got my question.

From what I have read and search on here, the 98's do not have the ignition/timing terminal you're talking about here;
"3) With the engine stopped, connect a jumper wire to the terminal for ignition-timing adjustment (located in the engine compartment), and ground it."

I've come to the conclusion that as I sit right now, with no aftermarket type of engine management and a factory computer, I cannot change my base timing because the ECU will compensate for the change because I cannot jump the computer via that terminal and groud it out. Fine, I understand that. My question is, if I can't do that, how can I determine the position to place the 1G CAS I'm using since it is adjustable? That's my question.

I stated in the very first sentence that 97+ cars cannot change their timing. It is because of the Cam Sensor is non-adjustable.. .not because of the ECU.

I believe you should be able to use the 1G system however. Do you have DSMLink? If so then it is very simple to force it to base timing. Under:

ECU->Miscellaneous->GND Timing button

This is the best help I can provide... I don't know if fully answers your question though. Since you are in a weird state with 6-bolt using 1G CAS in a 2G, with out some of the more advanced tuning software.

 

[Bizarre]

Yes I know that the 97+ CAS is non adjustable. I just finished putting my built 6 bolt into the car along with the 1g CAS.

I do have a tuning software (AEM) but I want to get all the bugs sorted out before I go ahead and install the system.

Thus what Im trying to say is, is there a way to properly adjust base timing in a 97+ car using a 1g cas, with the stock ecu.

Like you said yourself, the 1G CAS I'm using is adjustable, meaning it moves back and forth. What I'm trying to figure out is where exactly I would place it (which position). How back or how forward would I move it? I can't see a possible way to do it correctly since I can't adjust base timing because I have a 97+ car.

 

[Quicksilvergsx]

I had the same problem as you. I wanted to verify base timing too. I just installed the cas on the cam correctly with the marks lining up on the cas. I started it up and it ran great then and has since. I'm guessing all other 97 to 99's do the same since I have searched and found nothing. If you find a way to adjust base timing please let me know.

 

[JayRolla]

Thats not good though. You could be at 10* advance and not know it. I guess if you have an EMS you can just set the timing at WOT. Because off boost you wont have any driving issues even if the base timing is to high. If its a little low it can cause stall outs.

 

[Bizarre]

Ya I'm a little worried about it though. I can't stand the fact that I can't really know what my base timing is at. Anyways, I'm going to just have to figure something out. I hate knowing that I could possibly have my timing too retarded and can run hot, or having it too advance causing other problems and so on and so forth. I"ll just have to see what happens when I hook up the EMS and go from there.

 

[Splitpi]

Can you rotate the cams to TDC on Cylinder 1 and align the sensor from that position, since you would be starting from a known position?

 

[Bizarre]

Can you rotate the cams to TDC on Cylinder 1 and align the sensor from that position, since you would be starting from a known position?

So what exactly would I do?

Place cylinder 1 piston to TDC?
What would I check for with the cams and the sensor?

Thanks for your help

 

[Splitpi]

So what exactly would I do?

Place cylinder 1 piston to TDC?
What would I check for with the cams and the sensor?

Thanks for your help

That should align the cams, Exhaust @ 3 oclock, Intake @ 9 oclock, Crank at timing mark. The dowl pin shoud be vertical, and the timing mark on the Cam Shaft should be at 9 oclock on the intake (as seen from the sensor side...which is opposite of the side looking at the cam gears). Then you should just need to align the marks on the Cam Sensor with the Cam marking....

I believe anyways. I have never done this. But it may be helpful info ...

 

[Quicksilvergsx]

Can you rotate the cams to TDC on Cylinder 1 and align the sensor from that position, since you would be starting from a known position?

That's what I did. I forgot to mention that I was at top dead center in my first post.

 

[28-psi]

A little late but hopefully this helps...I also drive a 2g w/ 6 bolt swap and here's what I did. A little rough though without that stupid "jump" wire. This is RRE's version, check it and see what you think. http://www.roadraceengineering.com/1gcasin2g.htm
-Chris

 

[kasper618]

The wire you are looking for is Black/Green in the smallest plug of the 4 going to your ecu. There is only 1 black with green stripe wire in the smallest plug. That is the timing ground wire. To adjust base idle, you would ground that black and green, and also the pink wire in the same plug just for info.