16G Help!!!

[johnny boy 93]

Hey guys,
Ok just bought a new engine for my car and have been installing it for the last 2 weeks on and off. I pulled off my stock 14b and it was cracked all down the exhaust side and I had shaft play, so I opted to buy a big 16g turbo. Now, the mods done to my car so far are a Full 3" Exhaust system, air intake, boost guage, the engine has a ported head. I also have a MBC on order. I have a completely stock fuel system. Now I know I can make some serious horse with this turbo, but I want to get the most out of it I can, but without damaging my engine AT ALL. My later mods of course will be bigger injectors and everything else but I just bought the engine, and I put a new racing clutch and lightweight flywheel in. I am also only 17 years old, and I am working on a students budget. So my question to you guys is will the 16g Damage my engine with fuel cut or detonation or anything like that, do I need fuel management or what? I need an answer asap. Thanks so much for your time and consideration.
John

 

[95WTSI]

Hey, I am in the same boat kinda, I don't the money the injectors and pump. I have a MHI small 16G and everyone has told me to run the minimum boost I can until I can get the proper setup (injectors, pump AFPR, SAFC....) so I have my boost controller turned off (freakin sucks) but that is what I was told by everyone...

 

[dalatinromeo]

If you are running stock boost you have nothing to worry about. Keep the boost between 10-13 psi you should be safe. Some will say up to 15 psi, but hey you don't have a high budget in case something goes wrong, so I say 13 psi should be the highest you should go for now. You will be happy with the power output, and not worry about damaging your engine.

But if you start increase the boost with that new MBC you have yes you can seriously do some damage!!

 

[schoffs4]

keep the boost down and you wont hurt the engine, intill you have more money for fuel upgrades

 

[dalatinromeo]

Hey, I am in the same boat kinda, I don't the money the injectors and pump. I have a MHI small 16G and everyone has told me to run the minimum boost I can until I can get the proper setup (injectors, pump AFPR, SAFC....) so I have my boost controller turned off (freakin sucks) but that is what I was told by everyone...

Ahh you beat me to it!!

 

[forcefed 95]

You will be safe with the 16g w/o any fuel mods as ling as you keep the boost down.
I wouild not recoment anything over 14psi with no suppoorting fuel. Anything really ove that you will need a bigger pump,afpr,injectors and some sort of tunig device and of course a logger. but other than that jsut keep the boost down and your new engine will be safe from knock and detnation and of course the infamouse fuel cut.

 

[Talesin]

Personally, I'd just run a vac line from the compressor outlet elbow directly to the wastegate actuator for now. 10psi, but you'll make a lot more power on that than you would on the 14b at 12psi, due to the cooler charge.
Definitely are going to need to upgrade your fuel system, and get some fuel management before you'll start seeing the major gains that the B16G can provide.

 

[johnny boy 93]

Thanks so much everyone who subscribed and answered my question it is greatly appreciated!! Good to know that I can keep the MBC off my system for right now and just add the 16g for now until I buy supporting mods. Now for supporting mods I have some questions if you don't mind. Ok first of all what are these eprom ecus, second what is the MAFT translator setup going to give me, and third , what does a SAFC do for my fuel, and finally, what does the Wideband O2 sensor give me? Thanks so much you all, and I know I am a serious newb to this kinda stuff but I want to learn, and most of all I want to do this right, even if it means less power for now, I want to keep what is best for my car, and engine. Thanks in advance!!
John

 

[TurboAnything]

A Eprom Ecu has a chip that can be changed out for DsmLink or Reflashed for injectors and redline, things like that. A Maft is a conversion tool we use to put a hotwire GM Maf on our cars. It is not a recommended upgrade if you like driveability it takes lot's of tuning. An SAFC is a fuel controller It tricks the ECU into thinking you are at a lower airflow so you can run larger injectors and tune them. A wideband sensor lets you know your exact Air/fuel ratio so you can tune Either the SAFC or the Maft.

 

[architechnik]

That's a quick concise explanation, TurboAnything! What does SAFC stand for? It's the first time I've heard of it...

How do you tune each of the SAFC and the MAFT? Are these chips that you would flash, and if so, which program/how do you?

 

[johnny boy 93]

Ok guys, I am starting to understand this better. So if I upgrade to an SAFC and evo injectors and fuel pump, and then wire it all in, this shoudl allow me to run my 16g at a higher boost setting. Now, how do I make my stock ECU and eprom ecu? Do I just buy and DSM chip and soder it in or what? And then after I socket or whatever to my ecu, how do I tell the computer how much boost I am putting into my engine?
Thanks tons guys for all the answers given so far, you have no idea how much this helps.
John

 

[daren_p]

That's a quick concise explanation, TurboAnything! What does SAFC stand for? It's the first time I've heard of it...

How do you tune each of the SAFC and the MAFT? Are these chips that you would flash, and if so, which program/how do you?

I would imagine SAFC stands for something like super air fuel controller, but could be wrong Its made by Apexi if you want to do some research & if you search the term SAFC on here you will get a tonn of info. You must be new to the whole tuning scene, as the SAFC is a very common term .


As for tuning each of these, you can search on here or last time I checked RRE www.roadraceengineering.com had a link on tuning the SAFC in I believe their tech section & www.fullthrottlespeed.com has a download section for instruction of the MAFT. No these are not chips, the SAFC is an electronic device that intercepts the airflow signal from the MAF (the stock air metering device on our cars) & allows you to modify the signal to compenate for larger injectors/tune the aif/fuel ratio. The GM MAF is a different style of air metering device that you install to replace our stock MAF. This setup allows you to place the GM MAF sensor after the BOV, so you can properly vent your BOV & helps to allow quicker spool as you no longer have a restriction pre turbo inlet, like the factory setup. It outputs a different type of signal compared to our stock MAF so you need a device called a MAFT or MAF Translator. This takes the GM MAF signal & converts it to a signal that can be reconigzed by our ecu. It has injector compensation adjustment & tuning adjustment built into the MAFT portion. The GM MAF/ MAFT sounds like a great setup but while some are able to tune it fine, others have issues & can never get a proper tune.


As for the eprom ecu question, the only way to get an eprom ecu is for your ecu to already be an eprom ecu from the factory. You cannot add something to a non eprom ecu to make it an eprom version. For 2g's your only option is to get an eprom ecu from a 95 model as thats the only year that came with them. For 1g's I believe there are several years that came with eproms ecu's for the first part of that years production run, so you have to check the part number on your ecu &/or open it up to verify if you have an eprom version or not.

For the origional question, like others have said keep it under 14psi & you should be safe (there is no 100% guarantee as every car can be different). I ran 13-14 psi on my evoIII pre fuel system upgrade (just stock pump rewire) & was completely safe. I upped it to 15 psi or slightly over which was safe for me as I had DSMLink installed for logging already. Now I wasn't seeing any knock because the factory fuel curve is extremely rich but at that boost the ecu was trying to see 107% injector duty cycle (IDC), which isn't a good thing. When you install the new turbo I would defently recommend you rewire the stock fuel pump as pump flow is directly related to voltage & from factory the voltage supply is very low & gets worse under load.

With the BCS (boost control solinod) connected you will probably only see around 10 psi (maybe less) being a 1g & if you disconnect the BCS (which you usually do when installing a MBC) you will see even less boost. I would install the MBC, just adjust it to the desired boost level (14 psi or under)

 

[Talesin]

Daren, stock WG pressure on the 14b and 16g is 10psi... with the BCS in the loop, it raises to 12psi when the ECU doesn't see any knock.

On a 1G, you pretty much have to take the ECU out and open the case to look and see... the boards have been swapped around between shells that the outer markings really aren't reliable to tell if you have one or not.

 

[daren_p]

Daren, stock WG pressure on the 14b and 16g is 10psi... with the BCS in the loop, it raises to 12psi when the ECU doesn't see any knock.

I was just giving general info on approx boost levels to expect. Stock WG pressure on both a 14b or 16g won't always be 10 psi, it will very abit. As for the BCS being hooked up & seeing 12 psi, this isn't always the case either. 2g's usually see more boost in stock form compared to a 1g & the amount of actual boost can very a few psi from car to car.

 

[architechnik]

Thanks Darren, excellent explanation! I have been milling around on here for some time and it's difficult to find a straight explanation. There are far too many posts that are talking the terms up with little technical information to support claims. (Google searches are even worse.)

What would we look for when we pop the case off the ECU? I doubt it will be a neon sign flashing, "This is an EPROM"

If I already have an EPROM, is socketing a simple terminal to hook-up?

 

[DiamondStarAwd]

You will be safe with the 16g w/o any fuel mods as ling as you keep the boost down.
I wouild not recoment anything over 14psi with no suppoorting fuel. Anything really ove that you will need a bigger pump,afpr,injectors and some sort of tunig device and of course a logger. but other than that jsut keep the boost down and your new engine will be safe from knock and detnation and of course the infamouse fuel cut.

Spell check? Maybe?

 

[Talesin]

What would we look for when we pop the case off the ECU? I doubt it will be a neon sign flashing, "This is an EPROM"

If I already have an EPROM, is socketing a simple terminal to hook-up?

If it's an EPROM ECU, there's only one EPROM and it's pretty obvious. There are pictures up on VFAQ. If it's a non-EPROM ECU, there are no EPROMs anywhere.

To socket it, you need to desolder the EPROM and solder in an EPROM socket in its place, preferably a low-profile ZIF socket. The traces are VERY delicate though, and the copper pads are very easy to lift if you don't get every last bit of solder off... if you know how to do IC repair, you can do it yourself. If you've never soldered... try to find a TV repair shop that can do it.

 

[Calan]

I'm not sure how much you've read or know, but here are some things I've discovered since I got into this. If you're past it, well... sorry

1. I hope you already have one, but if not...get a decent mechanical boost guage (preferably one that reads both boost and vac). That should be the very first money ever spent on a DSM in my opinion.

2. You may want to contact Jeff at www.keydiver.com. He has (or at least very recently had) eprom ECU's for sale, along with his custom chips...and IMHO, he provides excellent service at a fair price. With that said, I wouldn't be in too big of a hurry to get a custom chip or even an ECU for that matter (couldn't hurt to go ahead and get the ECU though if you have the money, but you are a ways away from it being a necessity).

3. As Talesin said, run a vac line from the compressor outlet elbow directly to the wastegate actuator for now.

4. If you don't have it yet, get a logger of some sort.

5. Get a logger of some sort.

6. Get a logger of some sort. See where I'm going with this? Don't even bother modding your car if you can't see (and understand) exactly what is going on with it. Doing so will just cause frustration and expense later.

I picked up a Palm IIIc (inexpensive, color display, modifiable to always be recharging from your car, etc) along with PocketLogger and mmcd software. Works great for basic tuning and very decent at allowing you to monitor most everything. It will also allow you to test injectors, turn on the fuel pump, read cels, etc.

7. Get a few hundred gallons of your favorite drink and some snacks, and start researching. Read and absorb everything you can find. Contrary to what people will tell you, getting the most out of these things is not a simple task. Start with the upgrade path listed on this site, and digest everything at www.vfaq.com.

8. Make sure your car is in good shape mechanically before worrying about more power. (Timing components, drivetrain, tires, etc.)... 300hp is useless if it's spilling all over your garage floor because everything is broken and it can't get to the pavement.

9. As a couple of guys mentioned, the MAF-T isn't easy. In fact, I think it's down right tempermental in most cases. I still use it because it was in the car when I bought it and I haven't gotten around to another solution yet; but I wouldn't have installed it knowing what I know now.

10. If funds get low, don't get frustrated. Spend your time working on the things that are either broken or soon will be, that don't cost much (if anything) to fix. Some examples are windows sticking, rear hatch struts, interior lights that don't work, misc rattles, brittle/broken wiring and rubber, anything that needs a good cleaning, etc. These cars are older and in most cases, abused. Do the boring non-performance stuff along with the go-fast stuff; you'll be happy you did later.

Above all, be patient and don't get in a hurry with any purchases or upgrades.

Just my .02

Good luck!

 

[johnny boy 93]

Ok guys, Final question, I think I know what way I am going to go with this. if I rewire my fuel system putting in a evo fuel pump and injectors, along with an eprom with a chip built for my car that should do the trick. As for tuning. If I am on a student budget WHAT IS THE BEST TUNE FOR MY VALUE? Also some people have been telling me to run a line to my wastegate... what does this do for me? Thanks for all the advice guys, this helps so much!!
John

 

[Calan]

WHAT IS THE BEST TUNE FOR MY VALUE?

Not sure I understand the question, but the "best tune" for any car would completely depend on everything in the car and how it is set up.

Also some people have been telling me to run a line to my wastegate... what does this do for me?

By running a vac hose from a downpipe nipple (boost source) straight to the wastegate, it will limit your boost to 10-12psi and prevent you from overboosting and potentially damaging your engine before you have the knowledge and mods to do it safely.