Pocketlogger questions.

[gobeli67]

Ok so I'm going to be ordering a pocket logger with the MMdc or MMcd (which ever it is) program and I was wondering what I would be able to do with this logging setup. Is it going to be just basic things, or will I be able to change timing curves and fuel curves according to what I need to have tuned? Or should I just invest in a stage 3 eprom?

 

[sonicnofadz]

You will not be able to change anything with MMCD. You will be able to clear any resident OBD codes but thats about it. MMCD is a tool to allow you to monitor what the ECU is thinking (knock levels, MAF signal, ignition timing, injector duty cycle, etc.) If you actually want to change something, you will need some type of engine mangement (AEM, SAFC, ECU CHIP, etc.).

 

[gobeli67]

so should I spend the 140 and get the chip then?

 

[sonicnofadz]

It depends on what your goals are. If you purchase a SAFC, you will have more control over your fuel curve, but you will need a wideband o2 meter to safely make adjustments (which costs $). With the SAFC you won't be able to alter your ignition timing curve however, and you won't make as much power. Buying the chip would be a 1st start, but I recommend always check your AFR via wideband, even when running a tune done by a professional.

 

[JayRolla]

I see you have a maf-t. That is pretty much like a safc. I also see you have not fuel pump or FMIC. I would get these along with a chip with custom timing maps. you want less timing on pump gas expecially on 1g's. Do a lot of research and talk to the chip company for the best setup for you.

 

[SpeedAddict62]

I am also looking to get a logger, and MMcd sounds like a good option for 1gs. But where is the best place to pick up a logger? As I understand it, you need a palm, an ALDL cable to plug into the factory diagnostic port, and a way to hotsync, correct?

 

[spyderturbo007]

but you will need a wideband o2 meter to safely make adjustments (which costs $).

I disagree.

A WBO2 is nice, but with the 1g's ability to monitor knock, all you really need is a logger.

I am also looking to get a logger, and MMcd sounds like a good option for 1gs. But where is the best place to pick up a logger? As I understand it, you need a palm, an ALDL cable to plug into the factory diagnostic port, and a way to hotsync, correct?

The software is downloadable, so all you need is a link for the download. You will need to pick up a Palm, which you can get off ebay for pretty cheap. I paid about $30 for my m130 and about $15 for the m105 I had before the m130. I would, however, suggest getting something with rechargable batteries. My m105 used 2 AAA batteries and was a real pain.

You are also going to need the cable to connect to the OBD port and a serial hotsync cable to attach to the palm.

 

[sonicnofadz]

When it comes to tuning (I suck at it) and I like to have all the help I can get. I don't like making guesses. Tuning a car by only looking at it's knock level is a real retarded way to go about things. He won't have the slightest idea of how lean or rich he will be. 1G knock detection is also extremely inaccurate (very noisey, most of the time it picks up chatter that it isn't even detonation!). Telling a newbie to try to tune a 1G without a wideband is a sureway to blow his block up for good.

I disagree.

A WBO2 is nice, but with the 1g's ability to monitor knock, all you really need is a logger.

 

[spyderturbo007]

When it comes to tuning (I suck at it) and I like to have all the help I can get. I don't like making guesses. Tuning a car by only looking at it's knock level is a real retarded way to go about things.

Wow, this is the first time I've heard this. In your post above, you mentioned nothing about a logger and told him to go by AFR only?!?!?! I have a real problem with that statement. A logger is essential to tuning and can not be replaced by a WBO2. Without being able to look at knock or timing, how do you suggest that he decide the appropriate AFR to run? One car that runs great at 11.5:1 will knock like crazy in another car. People that have access to 94 octane can get away with a leaner AFR than people stuck in CA running 91 octane. There are a ton of things that effect your target AFR.

What I want to know, how do you decide the appropriate AFR to run without looking at knock?

He won't have the slightest idea of how lean or rich he will be.

Of course he will. How would he not? It's a simple calculation to determine the SAFC correction factors, based on the size of the injectors, that will put you back at the ECU's target AFR of 9.5:1. Lean it out a couple more percent and you are working your way towards the 11:1 range.

1G knock detection is also extremely inaccurate (very noisey, most of the time it picks up chatter that it isn't even detonation!).

Sometimes, but it's an easy thing to diagnose. Normally it's caused by a 15 year old knock sensor. Distinguishing phantom knock from real knock is as simple as picking up a couple gallons of race gas.

Telling a newbie to try to tune a 1G without a wideband is a sureway to blow his block up for good.

Yeah, ok.....So let's say he's tuning without a WBO2, pulls an AFR out of thin air and starts to tune to that AFR. Then he lends his car to someone that tries to be nice and fill it up with gas. They throw in 87 octane and don't tell him what grade gas they used. Now he's running a lean AFR for 87 octane, starts knocking all over the place and doesn't know it.

What about being able to verify functionality of the TPS? Looking at IDC, IPW, O2 voltages, timing, etc?

Please educate me as to why tuning by AFR is better than the "retarted" knock tuning.

 

[sonicnofadz]

I think you have misunderstood what I am talking about. You cannot tune a car solely off a logger. You cannot tune a car solely on wideband alone. Read my original post.

 

[spyderturbo007]

I think you have misunderstood what I am talking about. You cannot tune a car solely off a logger. You cannot tune a car solely on wideband alone. Read my original post.

Of course you can. I've been doing it for 2 years now. When my original tune was dynoed the AFR trace showed a consistent 11.1 - 11.3:1.

There are a ton of people here who tune with only a logger and I haven't heard of any that have blown up their engine.

Please explain why you can't tune solely off a logger......

 

[sonicnofadz]

There is no way you can tune a car without knowing its AFR. THAT IS THE POINT OF TUNING. Of course you can start fiddling with the ECU's fuel trim and hope things are correct, but in the end, the only way to accurately tune a car is to monitor the ECU settings and the AFR. I have "tuned" many DSM's without a wideband, and I can tell you for sure they would be making WAY more power if I had a wideband to see what the hell I was doing. I wouldn't even really call that "tuning" because it reality it just guesswork.

 

[delta448]

Sonic, I think you may be a little confused. Knock is the only thing to be concerned about when tuning an engine, except for maybe the heat tolerance of the internal engine parts, which is directly related to knock anyways. Knock and EGTs are the best tools to tell you what is a safe AFR.

AFR is completely subjective like Nathan said, you might run 11.8:1 as a perfect tune on one car and melt an engine at 10.8:1 on another car.

Timing affects knock more than AFR. Knock does increase as AFR gets lean, but if you don't know knock, you don't know the right AFR or how far you can push it. A wideband is nice to have if you want a quick look to get you in the ballpark, but knock count and EGT are the important things that must be considered.

 

[JayRolla]

Of course you can. I've been doing it for 2 years now. When my original tune was dynoed the AFR trace showed a consistent 11.1 - 11.3:1.

There are a ton of people here who tune with only a logger and I haven't heard of any that have blown up their engine.

Please explain why you can't tune solely off a logger......

Ok spyder your right but to a point. You can tune off of just a logger but your only tuning to knock. You can run a little rich and still not get knock.

I know if you good you can sit there and keep tuning to find that perfect spot where you dont get knock but you still can benefit from a wb02. You tune for the most power not just to keep your motor safe and without a wb02 you cant do that perfectly.

Also tuning with a wb02 and on a dyno is better I think. Thats why im not going to buy one, im going to tune off the logger than go to the dyno. When my brother dynoed they tuned for better drivabilitly and gas mileage along with wot tune. You can get close to perfect on the logger but never will.

 

[sonicnofadz]

The best tuners in the industry ALWAYS USE A WIDEBAND. Come to get a PROFESSIONAL tune from ANY SPEED SHOP IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (or Japan for that matter). They will use a wideband. If you do not use a wideband when tuning, you have know idea what the hell you are doing. Tuning for knock is a must, but to really have an idea on what is going on, you must know your AFR and EGT as well. To extract 100% of the power you cannot just rely on knock! That is ridiculous! If you just look at knock you could be running extremely rich (and not knocking). Without knowing AFR you HAVE NO IDEA how much leaner you can run without blowing something up.

To sum things up, YES it is definitely possible to tune without a wideband, but I feel that to ACCURATELY (no guessing) tune a car you must have the proper tools to do so. Those tools are: EGT, wideband, knock detection. Without these three basic things, the tune will be lacking.

 

[Turbolaser4528]

This is an excellent thread