newb cam question for evo 3 16g

[bob123131]

My mods are 18 to 20 psi on an evo 3 ported with all supporting mods. I have the intake mani of a evo 3 and am planning on getting cams. I plan to stay with this turbo but want more top end for now since im fwd. My question is that i was going to get the comp 200's but looking at dyno graphs they really have a range from like 2500 to 7400 since i shift at 6400 is there any point in getting these instead of the fp1's? If you are going to say well just shift higher i would but i think that with the evo and the intake mani i really see my full potenetion around 6200 rpms and if so is there a point of going to 7k. Basically im afraid that since i dont even go through 1200 rpms of the comp 200s i will actually see less power and tork than with the fp1 which are rated to 6900.

 

[andymoraitis]

Bob,

I think the main issue with camming a smaller turbo like the EVO III is that you want to be able to maintain full boost to your max shift point without the motor outflowing the turbo thereby creating boost falloff. Since you have modest boost goals, there would be no problem shifting the car at higher RPM's with aftermarket cams. You could even shift higher now and still make power on the stockers. On stock cams and a 16G, I kept my shift points around 7000 or so.

In order to maintain the best possible low end torque and still allow for upper RPM breathing, I would recommend a set of DKS 264/272's. Should you ever decide to upgrade the turbo, you'll have a solid platform for a medium sized turbo like a 50 trim or even something larger. In addition, you'll be able to have a very streetable combo for your EVO III.

My advice is to shift it higher. There's no need to go to 7500 on something that small unless you're drag racing and running the turbo to it's limits but for your purposes there's no reason that you couldn't shift at 7000 without aftermarket cams and 7200-7400 with them.

As a final thought, our stock intake manifolds are more than effective out of the box. I have no experience with the EVO III intake manifold but if it limits top end power production, why install it? Making a strong combination is all about maximizing flow and VE (volumetric efficiency). There will always be restrictions to deal with but I wouldn't recommend installing a part that flows less than the stock part (if it in fact does flow less).

Know what I mean Vern?

Andy

 

[CanadianTSi]

I agree with Andy.

A few months ago a friend of mine was running some decent times at the track with his 16g. I asked him what he was shifting at, he said 6500 at the most because it didn't feel like it pulled any further. I told him to take it to 7000. He consistantly knocked 3-4 tenths of his time and picked up 3-4mph.

 

[bob123131]

Andy the stock 2g intake manifold really starts to limit power around 5500 rpms the evo 3 is very similar to the 1g intake manifold that hits its max flow at 6200. My car was dynoed at 234 whp at 18 psi and my max power was at 6300 rpms i beleive so i have been shifiting around 6500 to get back into my powerbandwith. The main purpose of these cams is to give me more top end to make up for my severe lack of traction. I also know previously when i talked about the intake manis and used words like limited, peaked, max flow these are technically not the exactly the correct terms but you get my point. Also im not disagreeing with you and saying my shift points are right yours our wrong im jsut explaining why i have been shifting there. Also just to clear it up i would like to build the best mid range to topend frontwheel drive eclipse i can with the evo 3. Also though i do not want to go bigger than the evo because i want a very streetable car and im going gsx whenever i find a decent shell and can save up aout 2k. Thats why i would liek to help my mid range too and not just have a car that inly pulls from 6k up. My motor will be being built when i swap it into the gsx.
Also wont the Dks cams have a more lumpy idle like the hks? I would like to stay a little more to stock idle since i daily drive this during the summer and some of winter.

 

[bob123131]

some threads i have read where i got my ideas about shift points


http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217504&highlight=shift+rpm

http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9858&highlight=shift+rpm

 

[andymoraitis]

Bob,

I can understand what you're getting at, but consider that I just flowed 51 lbs/min on a stock 2G intake and stock 2G head (with Comp 200's). The flow is certainly there although I'm using a stroker to get the power down. I also typically shift at 7000-7100 RPM since max airflow happens at 7100 and doesn't gain any more by 7200.

When you read a dyno plot, remember that although these are boosted cars, it's still helpful to rev them higher than the point at which they make max power simply because you want to grab the torque peak in the next gear. I'm in full agreement with Ty on this one in that going higher will put the motor in a sweeter spot to pull harder in the next gear. I still think 7000 is perfect for your setup on stock cams and 7200 or so is great for aftermarket cams. Going 200 RPM above max power won't do much, but going 600-700 will.

With respect to choices, if you want a stock like idle then I'd look into an FP1/FP2 combination. I know you're concerned about wheelspin and trying to delay it somewhat with a softer torque hit but that's just not going to happen with an EVO III. If that's what you really want I'd look at a 60-1 but that's way beyond what you're looking for.

Trust me. Take it to the track and try both sets of shift points. Mine (and Ty's) will be faster.

A.

 

[bob123131]

ok i trust you guys and fp1 fp2 combo sounds great and was one of my top 3 choices and will probably be going with that. But just to comment this thread was never sapose to be bale shift points jsut what is the best bang for my buck on my setup as far as cams go.

 

[andymoraitis]

Remember that your shift points work with your cams and it was therefore a necessary part of the discussion. Without raising the shift points you would have missed out on a great deal of the gains that aftermarket cams have to offer.

I think you'll do very well with the FP1/FP2 combo if you want a stock like idle.

Good luck and let us know how it works out for you.

 

[bob123131]

thx alot.

 

[daren_p]

FP1/FP2 combo will work well but if you don't mid abit extra for a set of springs & retainers I would recommend the FP1x cams. This is what I run with my evoIII & with these cams I see the same airflow at 18psi with the cams as I did at 22 psi before the cams. The 1x have the same lift as the FP2's & an increased ramp rate to open/close the valve faster so the amount of time they hold the valve open is longer. This gives you better idle, better vacuum & more power potential. I think your shifting a little to soon even on the stock cams, I would run them out to about 7000 rpms pre cams & you can tell it starts to drop off in the high 6's but not enough IMO to make you want to shift that early. With the cams I run 7500 in first & second no problem & usually take it to about 7300 in 3rd.

 

[andymoraitis]

Nocely said Daren. I completely forgot about the "x' variations.

 

[bob123131]

yea i never knew they made that much of difference. What springs and retainers do you run and got any suggestions. Rememer im on a budget. Also since you said the 1x is same lift as 2 would i just run 2 1x's or a 1x 2x combo?

 

[andymoraitis]

You can run FP's dual springs which they list on their website. The "x" cam really isn't for someone on a small budget since dual springs can get a bit pricey. If I was running these, I'd run a straight 1x setup for your combination. Ferrea also makes a dual spring package.

 

[CanadianTSi]

I run the 2x's on a set of Manley Springs and Retainers. I've run it this way all this year bouncing off the Limiter many many times So you could go this way to save some $$ but I guess it all depends on what your comfortable with.

 

[bob123131]

So you dont need dual springs? Can i just run 1x intake and 1x exh with crower springs and retainers.

 

[andymoraitis]

Your best bet would be to call Brian Crower and see what he says. It would be helpful to have all of the cam specs (lift, duration and overlap) so that he can make a proper judgement. Also let him know what your max revs will be.

 

[Bmxr152]

I have some comp cams 200's on an Evo 3 turbo and love them. There is hardly any diffrence with the idle and the loss of low end everone talks about you wont even notice. It pulls at 10 psi like it did before at 15 psi. I noticed the biggest diffrence between about 4200 prm all the way to about 7800 rpm. And i picked them up brand new off Ebay for $290 shipped.

 

[2gAWDTalon]

I tlked to Brian Crower yesterday about the 280's I am buying from him. He is very helpful, knowldgable and just a cool/down-to-earth guy! I would reccomend asking him as his valve springs can be had for under a $100 and the kit with Ti. retainers is like 220. He told me that people have takin his valve train kit over 10,000 rpms but the thing to be concerend with on the FPx cams is the ramp rates. They ask the valves to open and close REALLY fast. I am sure BC wont give you any bad info, here is the number, press the appropriate number for tech and you should have the man himself...619.825.8719

On a side note, Andy... 51lbs/min is nice! What boost was that at? Looks like you maxing out the 50 huh...

 

[daren_p]

If you go straight up 1x's, any upgraded valve spring will work, Crower (which I run), Manley, BC, etc. If your on a tight budget you could skip the titanium retainers & just opt for the springs. If your comparing it to an HKS setup, since the FP cams are much cheeper when you add springs & retainers they basically add up the same. Quite often I see springs & retainers listed in the classifieds, so you can pick them up abit cheeper, even though lots of them are still brand new.

You can run a 1x, 2x combo but this is obviously abit more of an aggressive setup & according to Robert at FP you won't net much difference other then a lumpier idle & less vacuum for the size of turbo your running. The other thing to think about is FP recommends (well I believe they actually state "you must run" on their website now) you run dual springs with the 2x series. This adds abit more to the cost as duals run abit more $. With that being said, I believe Manley has the highest rated pressure single spring & more then a couple guys on here (including CanadianTsi) are using them with the 2x series.

 

[andymoraitis]

On a side note, Andy... 51lbs/min is nice! What boost was that at? Looks like you maxing out the 50 huh...

27 psi in 35 degree air on a 2.3 with a stock head and stock intake flowing through 2.25" intercooler piping and a Dejon sidemount. I'm running Comp 200's with the intake cam advanced 5 degrees. She's so far off the map I can't even tell you. I'd love to see how she does with a Switzer S256.

 

[scottsee]

This is some pretty good info. I bought some BC272 with springs and retainers for my evo316g/2g head and was wonding about shift points.. Thanks guys..

 

[andymoraitis]

Scott,

Depending on how much boost you run the cams will certainly affect how much she'll hold to your optimal shift point. I had trouble holding 26 psi on the 2.0 with cams and the 2.3 wouldn't allow more than 20. If you'll be running something moderate like 22-24 I think you'll be OK, but anything higher and you'll get a big spike with a slow dropoff even with a shimmed internal gate.

I'd start at 7200 and see how she reacts. In the meantime keep us posted on what seems to work best.