Dripping oil from crankcase breather filter...

[moonraker]

i have noticed that my crankcase breather filter always has a drop of oil on the bottom of it and seems to be leaking oil onto the block. after about a week of driving, my oil level turns up low and i have to add oil, i have checked and there are no other oil leaks and the engine was just rebuilt, with 3500 miles on it currently, it does not seem to be burning any aswell. has anybody had this problem? it seems like the filter is not retaining the oil like its supposed to. i just replaced it about a month ago too...

any help would be appreciated.

thnx.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Replace your PCV or better yet, get rid of it.

 

[CcsEclipse97]

I too recently put a breather on the crankcase and i have oil that actaully runs out at times. it gets all over the block and the IC pipe. i just take it off and rinse it out with high pressure water and put it back on and its good for a while but i too was wondering why does it do that?

i also got to thinking if i didnt have the breather on then wouldnt the oil run through the tube into the intake and then down into the turbo? let me know what you find out man

 

[MyBeatGSX]

i also got to thinking if i didnt have the breather on then wouldnt the oil run through the tube into the intake and then down into the turbo? let me know what you find out man

Exactly! This is why most people run catch cans, and the really smart people get rid of PCV all together.

 

[CcsEclipse97]

ok im gonna feel really stupid saying this but im new to the whole dsm & turbo thing so... what do u mean by PCV?

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Don't feel stupid, we were all new once.
Here's more than you'll ever want to know...

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935


Any questions, feel free to PM/AIM. I don't want to hijack this guy's thread.

 

[MrBoxx]

I'll just quote oldman here:

pcv isn't for emmisions, it is for crankcase ventilation. There are two main issues when it comes to ventilating your crankcase, pressure and fuel mixture. When disabled and routed to a catchcan Taboo style, the following will happen.

1. You are changing your vacuum system as well as air fuel mixture because the pcv system (system includes both pcv and breather routed in stock location) is already accounted for in the stock fuel feedback system.

2. Venting Taboo/RRE style will only address the pressure part (not always) in your crankcase and does nothing in swapping out dirty fuel mixture quickly enough to prvent settlement into your oil. Under vacuum, the pcv vavle is suppose to relef pressure as well as draw out fuel vapor and replace with fresh and METERED air (remember #1) drawn in through the breather side connected to the intake pipe, this is why people see smoke and smell heavy fuel out of the catch can after hard driving when venting.

It's your car and you can do what you wish but at least know what you're getting yourself into, I don't see how disabling the pcv will make your car run better unless the pcv is leaking pressure into the crankcase and the solution should be replacing it with another OEM piece. If the Taboo route is the route you choose to take, at least change your oil more often than regularly scheduled.

To get rid of that "dripping oil" problem, install an inline fuel filter (Fram G2/ Purolator 20011) into the valve cover breather line and reciculate the line to the intake like it was stock. This solves the oil gunk from getting all over the engine bay, keeps the air/fuel ratio and the metered air situation happy, and gives you a way to see how much oil vapor is coming out of your valve cover. Link to the VFAQ for this mod.

 

[oldman]

Exactly! This is why most people run catch cans, and the really smart people get rid of PCV all together.

Then why did you get rid of yours?

 

[4BangR-x]

Oldman FTW.

 

[Ultimatedsm]

I rather have my PCV do its job and get rid of contaminents of blow by. The Mitsubishi engineers installed them for a reason, if they could run the car without one they would, that $5.00 times 2 million DSM's is a lot of money they could of saved, but It is there for a reason.

 

[oldman]

i have checked and there are no other oil leaks and the engine was just rebuilt, with 3500 miles on it currently

What method are you using for break in? Have you compression tested since rebuild? Rings take time to seat properly expecially if you're using the "easy break in" method, this can explain why the extra blow by as well as oil consumption.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Then why did you get rid of yours?

You let me know when you actually TEST it, and maybe, when you finally have a leg for your opinion to stand on, I might consider what you're saying.

 

[moonraker]

What method are you using for break in? Have you compression tested since rebuild? Rings take time to seat properly expecially if you're using the "easy break in" method, this can explain why the extra blow by as well as oil consumption.

for the first 300 miles i didnt rev the engine past 4k and altered the rpm alot for break in. compression is very high showing 190's through 200 i believe because i have a stroker.

 

[moonraker]

thanks alot, i was wondering if i was the only one with this problem, but it seems to be common with all dsms, im gonna look into putting a catch can on it.

thanks again guys.

 

[Dream On]

You let me know when you actually TEST it, and maybe, when you finally have a leg for your opinion to stand on, I might consider what you're saying.

Have you done anything to test your method? I'll trust Mitsubishi and Oldman for now.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1199935

Did you catch the link this time around?

 

[MyBeatGSX]

In case anyone is too lazy to click it.

The purpose of the stock PCV system falls under 3 categories:

1) Performance
2) Emissions standards
3) Reliability

Performance
It is well known that performance gains can be had if the crankcase is under a slight source of vacuum which helps reduce crankcase windage losses. Many domestic users have seen decent gains by using either an electric or mechanical pump to help evacuate the pressure generated in the crankcase and even generate a vacuum present. Regaining lost power through the introduction of vacuum pressure evacuating the crankcase will not be as noticeable on a small displacement 4 cylinder as compared to a larger displacement 8cyl domestic. Despite this, it should still be of importance to explore the various configurations and attempt to "free-up" any power hidden in our engines which can easily be tested on a dyno.

Emissions Standards and Reliability
In order to comply with US emission standards honda had to use a closed PCV system which eliminated oil vapor from escaping into the atmosphere either from the valve cover or the crankcase breather. Oil vapors being introduced into our cylinders hurts performance and increases the probability of detonation occurring. The stock PCV system allows for the introduction of oil vapors into our intake manifold which hurts performance and reliability(a stock intake manifold is usually caked with collected oil and soot over the years).

A stock PCV system is far from an optimal configuration in terms of performance and reliability.

Intake Manifold Vacuum Assisted Ventilation
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Turbocharged vehicles the Intake manifold sees both vacuum and boost pressure unlike in naturally aspirated cars. The PCV valve acts as a check valve blocking any pressure in the rare occasion their is backfire in the Intake Manifold. I have heard that some individuals placing a check valve in-line and allowing the Intake manifold to assist in ventilating the crankcase. The check valve insures that boost pressure doesn't enter into the crankcase through this line.

Ideally one would want to induce a gradual amount of vacuum up to 15 in/hg under full load. Connecting the evacuation line to the intake manifold would do the exact opposite of this. On a boosted vehicle the Intake Manifold will read 25in/hg at idle and 20-15in/Hg in low load conditions and quickly disappear when any moderate to high load conditions appear.

In a stock vehicle this is acceptable because the PCV valve meters the vacuum as shown:

Idle, Low load--- high vacuum pressures fully retract the pintle causing only a small vacuum draw on the crankcase.

Mild load conditions--- vacuum present in the intake manifold is not as strong so the pintle sits in the middle of the pcv valve allowing more vacuum to evacuate the crankcase.

High load + WOT conditions--- their is almost no vacuum present and the pintle is almost completely extended allowing the most amount of gasses to be drawn into the intake manifold.

Engine backfire--- the pintle fully extends and seals to eliminate any gasses from flowing from the intake manifold to the crankcase.

Not only are you pulling excessive vacuum at low load conditions you are contaminating the Intake charge with oil and unburnt fuel blow-by.

I cannot recommend this setup to anyone.

Bottom line? Stock setup does what I always said it did, gives you the exact opposite of what you want or need. The vacuum is present only when you don't need it and it's not there (more likely you're pressurizing your crankcase because PCV valves never seal right) when you do need it. On top of it all, you're contaminating your mixture, IM, injectors, valves, and combustion cambers for absolutely no benefit to anything else in the system.

Go read the rest of the article to see the test's full findings.

If you trust Mitsubishi and their infinite knowledge of what's best for a fast car, then why isn't your car 100% stock? You people and your brand of "logic" baffles me.

 

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Honda-Tech
The purpose of the stock PCV system falls under 3 categories:

1) Performance
2) Emissions standards
3) Reliability

Performance
It is well known that performance gains can be had if the crankcase is under a slight source of vacuum which helps reduce crankcase windage losses. Many domestic users have seen decent gains by using either an electric or mechanical pump to help evacuate the pressure generated in the crankcase and even generate a vacuum present. Regaining lost power through the introduction of vacuum pressure evacuating the crankcase will not be as noticeable on a small displacement 4 cylinder as compared to a larger displacement 8cyl domestic. Despite this, it should still be of importance to explore the various configurations and attempt to "free-up" any power hidden in our engines which can easily be tested on a dyno.

Emissions Standards and Reliability
In order to comply with US emission standards honda had to use a closed PCV system which eliminated oil vapor from escaping into the atmosphere either from the valve cover or the crankcase breather. Oil vapors being introduced into our cylinders hurts performance and increases the probability of detonation occurring. The stock PCV system allows for the introduction of oil vapors into our intake manifold which hurts performance and reliability(a stock intake manifold is usually caked with collected oil and soot over the years).

A stock PCV system is far from an optimal configuration in terms of performance and reliability.

I really don't want to get into this again with you but as always, you only quote part of article that seem to support your claim while purposely leaving out the most important parts that contradicts your claim, let requote his first post without sensorship.

The purpose of the stock PCV system falls under 3 categories:

1) Performance
2) Emissions standards
3) Reliability

Performance
It is well known that performance gains can be had if the crankcase is under a slight source of vacuum which helps reduce crankcase windage losses. Many domestic users have seen decent gains by using either an electric or mechanical pump to help evacuate the pressure generated in the crankcase and even generate a vacuum present. Regaining lost power through the introduction of vacuum pressure evacuating the crankcase will not be as noticeable on a small displacement 4 cylinder as compared to a larger displacement 8cyl domestic. Despite this, it should still be of importance to explore the various configurations and attempt to "free-up" any power hidden in our engines which can easily be tested on a dyno.

Emissions Standards and Reliability
In order to comply with US emission standards honda had to use a closed PCV system which eliminated oil vapor from escaping into the atmosphere either from the valve cover or the crankcase breather. Oil vapors being introduced into our cylinders hurts performance and increases the probability of detonation occurring. The stock PCV system allows for the introduction of oil vapors into our intake manifold which hurts performance and reliability(a stock intake manifold is usually caked with collected oil and soot over the years).

A stock PCV system is far from an optimal configuration in terms of performance and reliability. The best arrangement is to create a vacuum inside the crankcase of 14-15 inches/Hg (7psi). You do not want to create higher vacuum than 15 in/Hg because you will begin to suck oil from valve guides, piston rings, and bearings which will have dramatic consequences. Inducing a vacuum in your crankcase will lower oil pressure slightly which may be alarming but shouldn't be because the oil volume is still present. 2-5 % increase in whp is not uncommon with a properly setup vacuum drawn crankcase pulling 15in/Hg.

This Vacuum will quickly remove unburnt Air/Fuel from blow-by gasses. Blow-by contaminates engine oil, contributes to sludge buildup, and causes corrosion. Turbocharged and Supercharged cars have significant amounts of blow-by because of the pressure created inside the cylinders. Your first priority should be to attempt to create a vacuum in the crankcase to remove the blow-by or at minimum make it as easy as possible for this pressure to escape.

Evacuating the crankcase pressure can be done directly from the block or valve cover. It doesn't matter which method you prefer.

So basically you have done the minimum by removing the pcv while VTA and "and the really smart people get rid of PCV all together". The article basically re-affirms what I have been telling you all along. No where in the article does it say having no vacuum is the smartest thing to do, stock pcv system may not be the "most optimal" crankcase ventilation method comparing to a $200 belt/electrical driven vacuum pump but it is still way ahead of your way. I do not understand why you quoted this article as it definitely hurts your arguement of, if I may try to sum up our many encounters on this topic, "no vacuum is needed and oil contamination is overrated". Am I missing something here?

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Yea you missed the part where he said he could NOT recommend intake manifold vacuum assisted PCV to anyone (regardless of catch can or not), it just doesn't work how you need it to.

Unless you want to go through all the trouble of an exhaust purge method (I don't know many people that will), totally vented IS the best second option. Intake vent (which I told everyone would draw a vacuum) still leaves you with an oil covered turbo and IC, definately not ideal. We both agree that pumps are excessive for a street car. So what does that leave? Open vented.

Change your oil at the designated intervals, that shouldn't be a problem regardless, it's part of owning a turbo car. After 3,000 miles my oil is as clean as the day it went in.

Hell, even RRE agrees with me (albeit "unofficially" for legal/evironmental reasons) so why keep arguing it?

 

[oldman]

totally vented IS the best second option.

Where are you coming up with this shit? What test have you done to back this bold statement up? I will also argue that his claim of "no vacuum under WOT" is false, why do you think the breather is suppose to be connected to the intake pipe?

Hell, even RRE agrees with me (albeit "unofficially" for legal/evironmental reasons)

Like I have already said once in another similar thread, asking RRE (well known for their RRE VTA catch cans) about this topic is like asking Unorthodox Racing about running undampered pullies. Not to mention this quote right from RRE.

An option for cars that never see use on the streets is to disable the PCV valve. Under normal operation the PCV valve allows crankcase air to be drawn into the intake manifold when you have vacuum in the manifold. Once you make boost pressure, the PCV valve closes and the only ventilation the crankcase gets is thru the small hose that was running to the turbo inlet.

so why keep arguing it?

Although I do not enjoy doing so, I will continue to call it when I see mis-information no matter how many times it takes.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

I back up my bold statement with his test. I just went through how I came to that conclusion.

mechanical purge > exhaust purge > vented > intake purge > stock That was the conclusion of the test.


You need the slash cut tube to pull the vacuum in the intake tube, just like in the exhaust. It only pulled like what, 1in/hg through a 1/2" hose? haha That's like a gnat pissing in the ocean compared to the amount of blowby on a turbo vehicle. = worthless

RRE says that, just like I already said, for legal reasons. They don't even openly recommend open venting on their catch cans, so how is me calling them and discussing it privately with a tech them pushing their product?

Oddly enough, that's the same reason I never let it go. Kind of like the Evo III thing. Ironically enough, everyone eventually came around on that and I even heard a wiseass say "the 50 trim is the new 16G".

 

[oldman]

RRE says that, just like I already said, for legal reasons. They don't even openly recommend open venting on their catch cans

Wrong agian, the reason it's ok to vent on a "track only car" is that it doesn't sit idling in traffic after hard runs so oil contaimation is kept little to none, not to mention most track only cars gets fresh fluids after each weekend.

I will say this again and hopefully it will be the last. You're entitle to your own oppinions and the right to run your car however you wish but please do not present your oppinions as facts because it isn't. Even if you're right, learn how to have a intelligent/civil discussion, respect others oppinions without being an asshole or resort to name calling, remember why you were suspended recently? Obviously either you have not learned your lesson or you just don't give a shit.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

I'd have to say it's the later. Don't hate because I disagree with you, because that's really the only problem anyone on here has with me. Any time I disagree I'm an asshole or not being civil. I don't see any non-civil thing that I've said in this topic, but yet I'm back to being an asshole again. Learn to read sarcasm.


Did you not read that test? The fact that the PCV doesn't allow much air past at idle is well known to the rest of the world, but lost to the DSM community. It is almost closed at idle to prevent irratic idle and plug fouling caused by mixture contamination. So you aren't getting the wonderful circulation you're looking for in that senario either. I've said it a million times and I'll say it again, it only circulates when you don't need it, at light throttle cruise. So what's the point of having it? Moral support? Just so know it's there and it makes you feel good because you think its removing blowby gases? You're doing more damage to the engine by making it vent through that tiny, 1/2" breather hole while under boost then you are by not using PCV.

Do you realize that we had a discussion with a GM engineer about this back on the Saturn boards? What are you trying to prove? Back up what you're saying for once. Those stars might mean something to most on this board people, but in reality they don't make your opinion any more valid than mine or anyone else's.
The reason it's ok for a "track only" car is that it's not emissions legal for a street car. But neither is anything we do!

 

[oldman]

I'd have to say it's the later. Don't hate because I disagree with you, because that's really the only problem anyone on here has with me. Any time I disagree I'm an asshole or not being civil. I don't see any non-civil thing that I've said in this topic, but yet I'm back to being an asshole again. Learn to read sarcasm.

Exactly! This is why most people run catch cans, and the really smart people get rid of PCV all together.

I might be one of the dumb people who's still running my pcv but I still have enough left to read between the lines.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Alright I'll give you that one. But outwardly I'm a very nice person.