Rebuilt motor won't start. If you feel you're intelligent with cars, help me out...

[nightspeed87]

( Its a little long but bear with me here. )

Ok to try to make a long story short, I rebuilt a 6bolt engine to drop in my car.
The engine had about everything replaced on it except the crank shaft ( got new bearings though) And the balance shafts were removed..

We dropped the engine in the car last weekend... Unfortunantly while we were still working on it and the hood was off it started suddenly pouring down rain, and the sparkplugs werent in the holes yet, but we quickly tarped it and threw the hood on top.

I know that water did get in there though.
The next day after everything was connected, we manually check it, and my engine builder
said he had the timing dead on. He tried to blow out some of the water out the engine with the compression stroke and the plugs not in the holes I believe.

Put oil, tried to crank, didnt crank, felt like starting an engine with spark plug wires in wrong locations. I took off the cas and turned it 180 degrees ( the only other way it can go ) This time it cranked, but cranked rough and sounded funny.
We turned it off like 3 seconds later, drained oil and the oil was milky and grayish.
( From the rain obviously since theres no way I have a blown head gasket on that new engine ) Drained, refilled, Cranked again. Let it run for like 5 more seconds ( still sounding funny ) turned off again. Drained oil, this time the oil looked regular, just had small shavings hear and there ( the size of sand particles and there wasnt many, they were break in shavings obviously ) As far as the engine sounding funny, there wasnt anything internally colliding because we manually cranked it over two or three times before starting it. But the engines funny sounds were coming from the head area. none the less, and it was running rough, we are concluding two things...

The funny sound possibly was because we didnt run it long enough to allow oil to circulate up into the head ( new head/ oil pump/ everything else.. ) Had the oil cap off when we started it and I didnt see any oil up there, yet we did lubricate all the parts while building engine. ( cant remember what we used. ) Maybe I shouldve ran it longer to see if noise went away as oil rose... Unfortunantly forgot to hook up oil sending unit so we couldnt see where the pressure was at. We dropped the oil pan after the 2nd crank and the oil looked normal still and didnt see anything abnormal.

Then we was considering the timing being slightly off causing it to run rough... The timing belt felt a little looser than it shouldve been,( we did replace tensioner though? ) but not loose enough were I thought itd pop off or anything... Not sure... Any ideas?

( This probably wont matter but, it has 2g pistons in it... And dont ask me why, long story; but it has n/t 4g63 camshafts in it )

 

[tom04841]

The funny noise was probably the lifters no having any oil in them. Do you know if the engine builder took off the CAS? If not, i would turn it back the way it was, check to make sure you have plug wires hooked up correctly, and pull the mpi fuse and crank over atleast 10 seconds to prime the system.

 

[drivemusicnow]

I can't possibly see how it could rain that much into 4 small holes in the time it would take you to cover them up.

I agree with tom though, change the CAS back, prime the system for AT LEAST 10 seconds (you should have done that before) and don't start it until you're sure the oil has circulated throughout the system.

 

[Black Venom]

I do know the cas had been off his car. I don't know how loud the head noise is, but it's probably the lifters not being primed.

 

[nightspeed87]

I do know the cas had been off his car. I don't know how loud the head noise is, but it's probably the lifters not being primed.

Yea correct, the cas was off... Remember I dropped a 90s motor in, therefore the 90s cas was a different design and I took my old 93 cas off my old engine and put it on.
I was also recommended the new design cas's were better anyways than the older ones.

As far as priming the engine, we primed it before we ever cranked it, and we manually turned it over before actually turning it on also. We had stepped inside for a minute when it started raining because we were taking a quick break and in Fl it will rain out of no where and you wouldnt be able to tell and thats what happened.
The hood was off, the holes were not plugged, and even though as soon as it started rainin I rushed outside, im positive water got in there. I seen water drops on top of the piston on tdc. Since the rings are sealed i imagen the rest of it rolled down into the crank area therefore must be why I didnt hydrolock the motor on crank up, yet it wouldnt crank at first. ( Which was a day later from when it rained anyways. )

Today im going to try to redo the timing some how, probably going to have to get help.
Since the timing belt felt a little loose im considering that relating to the problem.

I do also believe the funny head noises were dry lifter since the whole head is brand spankin new, and we didnt have it running longer than 5 seconds so Im sure oil never touched up there...

Is it relatively hard to tighten/ set timing with engine in car. Id imagen id have to remove the fenderliner behind driver wheel and the motor mount.
Any more ideas though

 

[T is for TURBO]

Hook up a mechanical oil pressure guage and see what the oil pressure is, that will tell you if you are getting oil to the head, unless an oil passage is blocked, and in that case just hook up the oil pressure gauge to the head.

Starting a cold 6 bolt w/o balance shafts will produce a shit ton of pressure (mine was about 90-100 psi with a high idle of about 1800RPM) and once it warms up it should be around 25-30 psi. (This is if you hook up your gauge at the filter houseing, I'm not sure what the oil pressure should be at when its connected to the head however)

Good luck man

 

[nightspeed87]

yea.. Im thinking my car has a timing issue the most.
Like i was saying that it was hard to crank at first, like the first 4 times it didnt crank it just sounded like it was trying to crank but didnt. What do you think couldve caused that, the water in the engine? that fact its a new motor and never been cranked?

 

[talonracn49]

Did you use assembly lube? Is that what could have appeared milky the first time you cranked it? I know that there is a white kind.

Did your engine guy not check the timing before you put the engine in? Your belt will not always be super tight between the pulleys because of the pressure the valve springs are putting on the cams. Try bumping the engine over with the key to see if it gets any tighter. Also, how does the belt feel on either side of the pulleys, not just between them?

Also, the running rough could be explained by the computer needing to relearn its idle, etc.

 

[nightspeed87]

good point.... He did use assemby lube on all the parts, and used tranny fluid onthe cylinder walls ( i think thats the fluid he used ) he says it helps seat piston rings or something. The idling part im not sure, and we bumped the engine over a bunch of times .

 

[T is for TURBO]

You said that it ran rough when you started it?
If so, could you have possibly put the backing plate on backwards? It's the plate that goes behind the crankshaft cog. If you did, your timming will be off significantly and will have bent valves. My friend did this. He was able to get it started and drive it, but it had NO power, sounds like ass, and finally just died and would not start any more.
Seriously, he was going about 10MPH at full boost. It was bad.
The best way to tell if it was on backwards is see if there is a cog "shadow" on it. The plate sits between the balance shaft cog and the timing belt cog. Each cog will leave its "shadow" on it and you can distinctly tell the difference b/c balance shaft cog is much larger in diameter. (granted to can only use this method if you are using a used backing plate)
If you need a picture, let me know, I have on at home.

 

[nightspeed87]

You said that it ran rough when you started it?
If so, could you have possibly put the backing plate on backwards? It's the plate that goes behind the crankshaft cog. If you did, your timming will be off significantly and will have bent valves. My friend did this. He was able to get it started and drive it, but it had NO power, sounds like ass, and finally just died and would not start any more.
Seriously, he was going about 10MPH at full boost. It was bad.
The best way to tell if it was on backwards is see if there is a cog "shadow" on it. The plate sits between the balance shaft cog and the timing belt cog. Each cog will leave its "shadow" on it and you can distinctly tell the difference b/c balance shaft cog is much larger in diameter. (granted to can only use this method if you are using a used backing plate)
If you need a picture, let me know, I have on at home.

Huh?? Im not sure of what backing plate.. Behind the crankshaft on the pulley side?
Show me some pics so I can think about it.

 

[T is for TURBO]

Huh?? Im not sure of what backing plate.. Behind the crankshaft on the pulley side?
Show me some pics so I can think about it.

the cog that runs the timming belt... it sits right behind it... ill get pic when i can...

-Shawn

 

[nightspeed87]

ok thanks im going to look into this.

 

[Charlie90GST]

My question here is why do you have non-turbo cams in a turbo head? that doesn't sound too healthy.

 

[T is for TURBO]

Here are those pictures I promised.

Notice how the teeth on the cogs left a "shadow" (more like dirt marks)
The plate should correspond with the cog marks...
If you have a new plate, or cleaned it, you will have to resort to a service manual.

 

[nightspeed87]

hmm... i dont know I didnt put together the timing belt assembly area, Im going to print this page to show the guy who did and see what he thinks. That gear/in the picture runs the timing and balance shaft belts right?


We think we figured out it out... We had this other dsm guy whos really good come out and examine ( I wasnt there at the time ) and he said that its definitly in the head.
The ran it longer this time and this time they said it started making a ticking noise, like lifter tap, he said this had to be since the hyrdolic lashers or lifters or which ever ones werent full primed and extended yet
because another dsm friend told me his did the same thing at first till about 30 miles of driving them in because they dont move their full depth and what not till broken in. Then he took off the valve cover and told me that there wasnt a cam seal, therefore the lplace who built my head ( clearwater cylinder head is the name of the place ) which is very reputable around here in Tampa, they mustve put it together wrong. It was a brand spankin new head all we did was pick it up.
There was oil leaking around the cam gear area since there wasnt a seal ( I was told ) and he said something about he didnt like the way the cam caps looked. Therefore im wondering if one of the cam caps were put on wrong.
This is what I understand from what they were saying so far. I was at work while they were checking it out. He said there hasnt been any damaged done to my new engine yet though. Were taking the whole head off again and taking it back to clearwater cylinderhead who constructed that one for it to be immediately fixed correctly or replaced since it was under warrenty. Anyone have any inputs on this matter..
Would one think this would fix my aggrivating problem?

 

[cotsi95]

why are you using NT cams?

 

[nightspeed87]

long story... Just say the old cams turned up lost to make it simple... But on the contrary several dsmers have ran n/t cams because they provide more mid range torque and a slightly different power band, yet it just doesnt carry as much duration as the turbo cams, as in top end power.
Anyways since we had n/t cams laying around we used them. Currently though I found someone whos selling me some Dc turbo cams though so I might use those...

Anyways Im still not sure about that crankshaft cog thing; but we did pull the head and the intake valves were off and they somewhat knick the pistons ( but not enough to be significant to worry about ) A place called Clearwater cylinder head is who built that ( brand new ) head, well they forgot to place the cam seals and it was leaking by the camgears, and also my engine builder believes possibly there could be something wrong with the cam caps or something, and were wondering if possible that the valves were set correctly? But im wondering how badly they could have messed up on that?

The last thing we came up with to be throwing the engine off, were using a 93 cam angle sensor from an n/t, and its on a 90s 6bolt engine... Will this throw anything off or can it be ran the same. I was once told the cam angle sensors on all 1g 2.0s were the same despite n/t or turbo.. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[Andrew Dahms]

I just rebuilt my 6 bolt engine and I found first hand and heard from many sources after the fact that if you have cranked your engine over without priming the engine for any amount of time (10 seconds was enough for me) you will need to replace bearings MUCH earlier that you should (my rod bearings lasted 60kms and 2 hours of idling).

 

[nightspeed87]

For one we put assembly lube over the whole engine while it was being built and did prime it. Also my bearings are cryotreated.


Anyways, since there as tapping noise after we started it the third time and let it run longer, we took off the head and check everything out and sure enough the pistons were knicked... ( Brand new pistons ) Anyways they were knicked deep, I could still run them so whatever. But the weird thing was is that only the intake side knicked and not the exhaust side... Why is that? Were taking the head back to the machine shop again and I purchased some turbo dc cams from a friend for 20 bucks ( There suppose to be the mix of the best turbo yr intake/ exhaust cams since the duration was improved in the later yr turbo 1gs ) Anyways the head had a 1yr warrenty and since it was already missing cam seals were speculating on the entire head build and will make them replace/ rebuild the head free of charge hopefully and install the turbo cams ( to take using n/t cams being a problem out of the equation. ) Were expecting them to find bent up intake valves on at least three of them.

Can anyone come up with any more possibilities of my problem so I can at least try a process of elimination?
Im somewhat leaning back towards the timing being off somehow, and that timing cog that the other guy mentioned is scaring me. But if it was the timing backplate cog he mentioned then why would only the intake valves be hitting the pistons and it would be all of them right? Are there a lot of different non interchangeable parts from 6bolt to 7bolt as far as timing wise, because we didnt have a front timing belt cover for the 6bolt engine and we used my old 7bolts timing belt cover but the bottom section was different therefore we had to cut the bottom section of the front timing belt cover out, and we completely dont have a rear timing belt cover, and im sure the marks for btdc are different from years on these engines...
Maybe we lined up timing with the 93 + timing plate marks instead of the 90-92 6bolt timing plates on the cover.

 

[nightspeed87]

Ok well we have everything back together and replaced the bent valves. We have the timing lined up perfect, well take that timin cog off and find one from a 6bolt to compare the two. How do you tell the difference?
Also I dont have balance shafts so therefore I wouldnt have a bs cog I dont think?
We replaced all the tensioners this time and the belt is much tighter like it should be instead of last time, and I bought some turbo cams from a friend so theres turbo cams in there now instead of n/t cams to take that question out of the equation.
I think I just need more timing help and cog answers.

 

[pearl4gtsi]

there is a way to prime the lifters prior to putting them in the head, getting rid of the lifter tick. and having unprimed lifter will also act as a bad lifter and caus the valve not to open up completely or at all and cause the enigne to run rough.

 

[91orangeGST]

What did the machine shop say about the bent valves? They wouldnt be responsable for them becuase thats due to the timing being off and thats why your car ran like crap. Think about it... Valves hitting pistons and noise from the head. Before you do anything else I would ditch the guy who built your motor because he obviously doesnt know anything about dms, since he had to have his friend come and look at it. While the pistons are still in decent shape I would take it to a real shop and have them check over everything. You should also hope your bearing arent screwed from the water in the oil. When I finished my motor build it had white in the oil, but that was due to the lub used to assemble it. Also make sure the exhaust cam was one tooth ahead of the intake cam on the timing marks befoer the tensioner was put on it. Didnt mean to be harsh, but good luck and keep us updated!

 

[nightspeed87]

What did the machine shop say about the bent valves? They wouldnt be responsable for them becuase thats due to the timing being off and thats why your car ran like crap. Think about it... Valves hitting pistons and noise from the head. Before you do anything else I would ditch the guy who built your motor because he obviously doesnt know anything about dms, since he had to have his friend come and look at it. While the pistons are still in decent shape I would take it to a real shop and have them check over everything. You should also hope your bearing arent screwed from the water in the oil. When I finished my motor build it had white in the oil, but that was due to the lub used to assemble it. Also make sure the exhaust cam was one tooth ahead of the intake cam on the timing marks befoer the tensioner was put on it. Didnt mean to be harsh, but good luck and keep us updated!

The exhaust cam has to be one tooth ahead , explain? ( I am completely unknowledgeable about timing, which to me is the part I HATE the most about engines. )

And as far as the noise, when we originally cranked it it wasnt making a hitting noise just a hollow noise. Later it started hitting, Like after the third crank? We used assembly lube on everything therefore I have speculation to believe that couldve been some of the white stuff in the oil. We drained oil immediately after 1st start up.
I mean the engine didnt get drowned with water, but explain why you mentioned that the water in the oil couldve messed up the bearings?
I dont understand that speculation? Also the engine has new head on it ( guy building engine covered it ) and reassembled but when it was originial assembled( when it bent the valves ) the timing belt was slightly looser than it shouldve been but i mean its not like it jumped timing or anything ( at least i dont think ) and we did replace the tensioners this time and its a lot tighter. Unfortuantly I forgot to line it up the 1st piston to top dead center the first time when we put everything on ( guess that was completely necessary huh. ) yet when we manually rotated the crankshaft with a breaker bar it rotated smoothly and didnt sound like nothing was touching.? yet this is why the 6bolt backing plate issue came to mind ( since two wisemen just confirmed to me that their different than 7s)

As far as my engine builder, yea I doubt I will go to him for any more major/ internal work; and his friend who came to look at it is a actual mitsubishi tech from the old days so I can understand him getting his opinion. As far as me taking it to a real shop, that isnt a option since I have no money to do this and would need the car towed to get it their, and they might not even know, and shops charge a ton when messing with timing on these cars for some reasons, or at least to the quotes Ive gotten.

therefore I will sort this out myself if I have to, but at any rate I have to get my car running, and running GOOD, soon since this is my everyday driver and its already been such a inconvience.

 

[Black Venom]

So you timed it with a verified 6 bolt backing plate?