Engine Rebuild - *Warning* A LOT of Questions

[TSG59_Steve]

I want experienced opinions on the things I am looking at. Also, I would like to know the best places to get these items (So far I have found the best prices at Forced Performance, Extreme Psi, Bonehead Racing, and Import Evolution).

First, my plans/dreams/goals. I want a streetable 300+ horses.

Before my engine spun a bearing I was looking into getting a FP Big T28. Now I want to get my hands on the Big 16g Forced Performance has on sale right now. It says it is rated for 380hp. Questions on that: Should I get it ported/clipped? I want to run 25psi on this thing. My fuel upgrade plans: Walboro 190 (I've read that is enough for 16g's but is it enough for 25psi?) 650cc Injectors, and I will either get a SAFCII or I might be getting DSMlink. I will be purchasing an XS fmic as well.

Now for the rebuild questions (note: this is my first rebuild, any and all tips/pointer/suggestions would be appreciated, oh and YES I am going to rebuild my 7bolt):
First: The spun bearing was pretty horrible, like completely GONE. I have pictures but they are on my phone and I'm too lazy to put them on here. Do you think the metal shavings from the bearing would cause damage to any other areas in the engine (besides the obvious crank and rod)? Particularly the head or turbo? What kind of work should I do on the head? I am trying to do a somewhat -cheap- build. I want to get it hot tanked at the least.

I want to get: Eagle H-beam rods; ARP head, main, and rod studs/bolts; ACL Main/Rod bearings; Balance Shaft Removal Kit; Prothane Motormounts; DKS cams; and a Cometic HG. Is the Cometic headgasket too much for my plans? Should I just get the Mitsu OEM one? Also, I am sooooo confused on the spraying the HG thing. From what I read I SHOULD spray it?

What other things should I replace? (Waterpump? Oil Pump?) The timing belt I had before the bearing was practically brand new... should I still get a new one anyway? I want to clean out the engine bay in my car as well, any suggestions on what I should use?

 

[1990talon]

Why are you set on 25psi? also I would suggest a new intercooler eithier a front mount but if you dont want to go with a FMIC I would at least go with a supra side mount.

 

[cobb]

Why are you set on 25psi? also I would suggest a new intercooler eithier a front mount but if you dont want to go with a FMIC I would at least go with a supra side mount.

He already Stated that he was getting a XS FMIC.

 

[Jeff822]

Why are you set on 25psi? also I would suggest a new intercooler eithier a front mount but if you dont want to go with a FMIC I would at least go with a supra side mount.

Edit: Damn cobb you beat me to it.

Because he wants to make 300+ hp, and he already mentioned a fmic.

 

[FORMONTOYA]

The vendors you picked are reputable, plus a few others if you check the vendor's page. Don't just pick the one with the lowest price in every difference as service means more than price (IMO).

A streetable 300WHP is a fairly easy goal. The big/Evo 16G are both decent choices, however, don't be mislead by HP numbers. Most are either taken at the crank and/or take into consideration that you'll be going "all out" with the motor.

A re-wired 190 pump will probably work, but a 255 will keep you going farther after you get the need for something bigger. Of course with the 255 you will NEED to purchase a AFPR with it. Some will say it's not needed for the 190, but IMO it's required to keep from over running the OEM FPR. As stated...some will argue, but I prefer to have everything running properly without issue.

650s will probably do it....If you go with the SAFC, then don't go over a set of 750s as they start to get to be a PITA to tune. If you go with DSMLink.....850s minimum.


If you spun a bearing in a nasty fashion, it's time for a bare block build....no comes the patient part. Call around to several shops in your area with a simple list:
Bare block/head rebuild (0.010 on the pistons and 0.010 on the crank journals), vatting (hot tank), cleaning, machine work, plus any head work and a build). Are you buying or supplying parts? Call several and decide on 2-3 shops that you will visit to check the professionalism. REMEMBER THAT WHAT YOU GET IS GOING TO BE A QUOTE. MORE THAN LIKELY IT WILL COST A LITTLE MORE AFTER COMPLETION.

If the crank is too bad, you will need to get another one. Head work....the 2G head is not the worst thing running. Setup properly you shouldn't have a problem getting in the 400WHP range with just a "factory fresh" head.

I personally wouldn't put OEM pistons on Eagle rods, but that's your call.

If I was doing a bare block build (off the top of my head at work):

Oil pump
Water pump
Timing belt (NEW, no matter how recent)
BS removal (which you are)
Tensioner
TB tensioner pulley
Idler pulley
Cam seals (2)
Crank seal (2 - front and rear)
Oil pump seal
Normal engine set gaskets
I use the Mitsubishi OEM HG to 20PSI
Check exhaust manifold
Crank/damper pulley

Of course you already stated ARP main, rod, head stud set and associated bearings.

I've never sprayed a head gasket on any motor I've built....V8 to I4, just follow the sequence and you'll be fine.

Plus you never mentioned a clutch, flywheel, or a LSD of some type (inserts or a true LSD). Or an exhaust system of some sort.

A FMIC is not absolutely needed (it will allow for a greater amount of runs before getting heat-soaked), a nice (upgraded) side mount will in most cases be sufficient.


After all this you'll learn you have 2 options out of 3 on any build..... 1. cheap 2. fast 3. reliable....the choice of the 2 is up to you.

edit: Add piston ring set to the list.
This is by no means a complete list of everything involved......just something to "get the ball rolling".

 

[TSG59_Steve]

I personally wouldn't put OEM pistons on Eagle rods, but that's your call.

Plus you never mentioned a clutch, flywheel, or a LSD of some type (inserts or a true LSD). Or an exhaust system of some sort.

A FMIC is not absolutely needed (it will allow for a greater amount of runs before getting heat-soaked), a nice (upgraded) side mount will in most cases be sufficient.

Just wondering, why not use the OEM pistons on the rods? Are they not any good or something?

Reason I didn't state anything about clutch/drivetrain is because I am still reading into it. I want to read into everything before I just post it. But since you asked: I was going to get a lightened flywheel, but then I came across a post about that not being necessary for my goals. So now I am just reading and getting more opinions. I plan on getting the ACT2100 after my new clutch wears out. Also, I dont know how much work goes into installing an insert LSD. I really don't know too much about transmission work besides replacing the clutch.

The exhaust I am looking at is the Apexi N1 with Dp 3". I am going to port my mani and o2 housing.

and I WANT a front mount, they are sexy and I'd be the only DSM with one (that I have seen) around here.

 

[TSG59_Steve]

Why are you set on 25psi? also I would suggest a new intercooler eithier a front mount but if you dont want to go with a FMIC I would at least go with a supra side mount.

I'm not really SET on 25psi. But isn't that about the max a Big 16g can take safely? I could have swore I saw that somewhere, but I could def. be wrong.

 

[1990talon]

You can do 25psi sorry I missed the FMIC I was just wondering why the 25psi that is all. and if you were definatly set on that. but I think that FORMONTOYA said pretty much everything. also why do you want just aftermarket rods and nothing else? If you are going to get the rods might as well get the pistons to.

 

[1990talon]

alot of people say that after 22psi on a 16g it turns into a hair dryer.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Do you have 2 grand that you can waste?

I say this partly to shock you, and partly to make you understand that what you are undertaking is GOING to be expensive and you CAN eff it all up. The list formantoya posted is fairly acurate, and when it comes down to it you are almost guaranteed to spend much much more than you expect at first.

My recomendation is that if you feel qualified, and have the money... Try. If you have any doubt about either of those, either buy a used engine that runs (for less money) or pay for a profesional to rebuild the motor for you. ENTIRELY stock motors have done well over 300, and in your case I would keep the motor entirely stock other than a few things. I would use a Cometic or 4layer MLS headgasket, as well as using arp headstuds. I would not use the ARP mains because of the extra machine work that needs to be performed if you do. (and when have you ever heard of a 4g63 main bolt letting loose causing a destroyed motor... ) Other than that... stock stock stock. INCLUDING rods and pistons.

Before my engine spun a bearing I was looking into getting a FP Big T28. Now I want to get my hands on the Big 16g Forced Performance has on sale right now. It says it is rated for 380hp. Questions on that: Should I get it ported/clipped? I want to run 25psi on this thing. My fuel upgrade plans: Walboro 190 (I've read that is enough for 16g's but is it enough for 25psi?) 650cc Injectors, and I will either get a SAFCII or I might be getting DSMlink. I will be purchasing an XS fmic as well.

I would agree with the turbo choice, and the intercooler. DSMlink is a much better option, espeically if you already have the Eprom ecu. Forget how much boost you want to run, and set your goal as the 300 whp. Use more boost, timing, fuel, and AFR to help you get there safely. I would also recomend (especially if you're using DSMLink) to use larger injectors, the 255HP model, and an AFPR.

Now for the rebuild questions (note: this is my first rebuild, any and all tips/pointer/suggestions would be appreciated, oh and YES I am going to rebuild my 7bolt):
First: The spun bearing was pretty horrible, like completely GONE. I have pictures but they are on my phone and I'm too lazy to put them on here. Do you think the metal shavings from the bearing would cause damage to any other areas in the engine (besides the obvious crank and rod)? Particularly the head or turbo? What kind of work should I do on the head? I am trying to do a somewhat -cheap- build. I want to get it hot tanked at the least.

Metal shavings go anywhere oil goes. this means the turbo you had on it, the head, the oil pump, etc. First and foremost you need to figure out a machine shop that you want to use, and figure out exactly what needs to be done. it's possible that you need to replace a few valves, or that you have to bore the cylinders out because they are out of round. don't buy parts until your machinist has fully inspected, measured, and approved the parts.

I want to get: Eagle H-beam rods; ARP head, main, and rod studs/bolts; ACL Main/Rod bearings; Balance Shaft Removal Kit; Prothane Motormounts; DKS cams; and a Cometic HG. Is the Cometic headgasket too much for my plans? Should I just get the Mitsu OEM one? Also, I am sooooo confused on the spraying the HG thing. From what I read I SHOULD spray it?

What other things should I replace? (Waterpump? Oil Pump?) The timing belt I had before the bearing was practically brand new... should I still get a new one anyway? I want to clean out the engine bay in my car as well, any suggestions on what I should use?

Read my first paragraph, and look at formantoyos list. Don't spend money on things like eagle rods and prothane motormounts until you have a full set of gaskets seals bearings, Timing belt ish, oil and water pumps... etc. I would keep the head stock (other than cams if you feel like it)


You'll have lots of questions as you come upon problems etc. Use this thread and search to find the answers. LOTS of dsmers have rebuilt their motors before so there is a fair amount of experience to draw upon.

 

[JayRolla]

alot of people say that after 22psi on a 16g it turns into a hair dryer.

I wouldnt say that. Isnt the turbo in its efficiency untill about 24-26psi?

Also I would say go with stock 1g rods and after market pistons or just 2g pistons for your goal.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Just wondering, why not use the OEM pistons on the rods? Are they not any good or something?

Reason I didn't state anything about clutch/drivetrain is because I am still reading into it. I want to read into everything before I just post it. But since you asked: I was going to get a lightened flywheel, but then I came across a post about that not being necessary for my goals. So now I am just reading and getting more opinions. I plan on getting the ACT2100 after my new clutch wears out. Also, I dont know how much work goes into installing an insert LSD. I really don't know too much about transmission work besides replacing the clutch.

The exhaust I am looking at is the Apexi N1 with Dp 3". I am going to port my mani and o2 housing.

and I WANT a front mount, they are sexy and I'd be the only DSM with one (that I have seen) around here.

Aftermarket pistons and rods use a different wrist pin than the stock ones. You would have to pay for machine work to convert the stock pistons to work on aftermarket rods, and you would then be at about 2/3rds the cost of forged pistons.

You don't need either, and while being able to say forged internals sounds cool, I'd prefer the 400$ in my pocket.

An ACT 2100 would work, I'd just use the stock flywheel. Insert LSD is not that difficult to install, however it isn't REALLY an LSD.

 

[FORMONTOYA]

I came back a little late....but the piston/rod combo I suggested against....as stated, if you're going to spend the money on a set of rods, why leave the pistons alone? For the price of the rods, you can get real close to a fresh set of OEM rods/pistons and they'll take you into the 350WHP range no problem.

With the FWD...a 2100 and a streetlite flywheel would be a great combo (being FWD, you'll probably spin the tires before you slip the clutch) ...I use it and love it. If you're not going over about 350WHP, the inserts will work great. Not a true LSD, but it's about $500 cheaper.

 

[pepsi21463]

I would go with the 255fp not the 190. If you do the math you'll have some room left over but it would be best to just step it up incase one day you do decide to go with an even bigger turbo.


Oh and heres the math out of the AEM EFI basics.
(power x BSFC) x (1+safety margin) = pounds/hour. The BSFC is the brake specific fuel consumption, basically it refers to how much fuel in pounds per hour the engine consumes per horsepower. That number is typical .65-.68 on forced induction cars. And the safety margin is usually 30%. You don't want to run out of fuel and lose your engine.

so I did (320 x .65) x (1.3) = 270.4 pounds/hour
Again to find gallons per hour I'm just using what AEM says that most gasoline based fuels run at 7.25 lbs/gallons.

so you take pounds/hour/7.25 = gallons/hour
270.4/7.25 = 37.29
Then to convert that to liters per hour you use the standard conversion of 3.785 and get roughly 141.67 lph.

Thats all done using wheel horsepower, if that equation was meant to be done in bhp then let me know it doesnt state that in the manual. But then that number would be considerably higher. But theres the math approach to finding what size fuel pump you need. You have some room, but to be on the safe side I would step it up

 

[drivemusicnow]

I would go with the 255fp not the 190. If you do the math you'll have some room left over but it would be best to just step it up incase one day you do decide to go with an even bigger turbo.


Oh and heres the math out of the AEM EFI basics.
(power x BSFC) x (1+safety margin) = pounds/hour. The BSFC is the brake specific fuel consumption, basically it refers to how much fuel in pounds per hour the engine consumes per horsepower. That number is typical .65-.68 on forced induction cars. And the safety margin is usually 30%. You don't want to run out of fuel and lose your engine.

so I did (320 x .65) x (1.3) = 270.4 pounds/hour
Again to find gallons per hour I'm just using what AEM says that most gasoline based fuels run at 7.25 lbs/gallons.

so you take pounds/hour/7.25 = gallons/hour
270.4/7.25 = 37.29
Then to convert that to liters per hour you use the standard conversion of 3.785 and get roughly 141.67 lph.

Thats all done using wheel horsepower, if that equation was meant to be done in bhp then let me know it doesnt state that in the manual. But then that number would be considerably higher. But theres the math approach to finding what size fuel pump you need. You have some room, but to be on the safe side I would step it up

The equations are definitely meant for BHP, and 7.25 seems a little low as well. probably close though.

And you almost always want to add a 20-30% safety margin.

 

[pepsi21463]

I figured it was meant for BHP, but wasnt sure so I just did whp. And I used the 30% safety margin.

Well if it was BHP then you're looking closer to 176.45lph assuming you have 25% drivetrain loss and still using that 7.25. Which, is way to close for comfort for me with a 190fp.

 

[TSG59_Steve]

Do you have 2 grand that you can waste?

I wouldn't say I just have it laying around or anything, but yes I have been saving every pretty penny I've gotten so I could get my car running again.

So I will be getting a Walboro 255 with AFPR, DSMlink, 850cc Injectors, OEM Rods and Pistons, and I wont get the ARP Main Studs.

THANKS VERY MUCH for all the quick and informative replys. I really appreciate it.

Oh btw, the reason I wanted eagle rods was because I saw that vid "Eclipse says BMW sucks" or something like that where he blew the rod in half. So I got kinda anxious I guess.

 

[FORMONTOYA]

After thought.....

Change ALL the hoses (radiator, heater, and all the miscellaneous jumper hoses scattered throughout the engine).

IMO...the shifter on these cars is a POS. So shifter plate bushings, cable end bushings and a B&M knock-off at the least will make a world of difference.


Buy a box of sandwich baggies (zip-lock), a scripto, and a roll of masking tape (and a camera if you don't already have one). Bag-n-tag your fasteners, parts. Mark bigger parts, tape or mark hose ends and electrical connections. Take detailed notes and take plenty of photos along the way. They will come in handy later when memory fades or you didn't have time to write something down.

As stated, if you think it will cost $XX.XX, make sure you have at least 1/2 as much more on hand.

Modding a car is like a girl friend.....your pockets get empty faster than you ever thought possible.

 

[pepsi21463]

Have you thought about 1g big rods with 2g pistons?

 

[pepsi21463]

After thought.....

Change ALL the hoses (radiator, heater, and all the miscellaneous jumper hoses scattered throughout the engine).

Is there a kit to do all of that? I thought I saw one on machv or SBR but I wasnt sure. It's definitely something I want to do here soon.

 

[FORMONTOYA]

Is there a kit to do all of that? I thought I saw one on machv or SBR but I wasnt sure. It's definitely something I want to do here soon.

I don't know if someone make a kit for a complete hose replacement. I purchase all my items such as these for the Eclipse from a local dealer (20% discount off OTC).

 

[TSG59_Steve]

Have you thought about 1g big rods with 2g pistons?

Yeah but I can't find any. The ones on the Vendor pages were just as expensive as the eagles.

 

[TSG59_Steve]

So it's not recommended to use fel-pro gasket sets? I saw some not so positive posts about these. Where can I get the stock ones, besides satan?

 

[4BangerV8Killer]

one thing to remember about headgaskets is most people get the idea that the strongest gasket you can get is best...which in my opinion is WRONG. Think when you blow a headgasket is when ## detonating so the gasket blows, now think if u have a hks metal or something along those lines....you detonate and theres no weak point on the gasket for the pressure to release therfore it decides to go through your bran new pistons ....so use a oem gasket as a crutch for future mistakes if your going with expensive internals

 

[JayRolla]

one thing to remember about headgaskets is most people get the idea that the strongest gasket you can get is best...which in my opinion is WRONG. Think when you blow a headgasket is when ## detonating so the gasket blows, now think if u have a hks metal or something along those lines....you detonate and theres no weak point on the gasket for the pressure to release therfore it decides to go through your bran new pistons ....so use a oem gasket as a crutch for future mistakes if your going with expensive internals

Thats a good idea right here. But cant real high boost blow a head gasket also or is it just the detonation?