Underhood fire suppression systems?

[KuZo]

This past Thursday night I had a scary experience while driving on the track. I was on it all the way till the end of the run, then hard on the brakes. Well just as I slammed on the brakes this huge fireball erupted, out of the drivers side wheel well. I wasn't "too" concerned because I initally I thought I somehow caught the brakes on fire, so...

I slowed to a stop and after looking at the wheel and the side of the car I see a film of oil all over. Come to find out, my oil filter came loose or the seal failed (not exactly sure) and it sprayed oil all over the engine bay, and onto my brakes causing the eruption of fire. People told me that the whole car looked like it was on fire from underneath when I was still going. Much to my suprise, as I thought it was a small fire.

Now I didn't even have a fire extinguisher with me. Had this happened on the street and it stayed on fire, I wouldn't have a car to talk about right now. Nobody ever thinks this can happen to them, but when it does, it's an eye opener.

So I wanted to know if there are any recommended underhood fire suppression systems, just in case something similar to this happens again and it doesn't go out. And I will have an in car fire extinguisher for extra safety from now on.

 

[mike b26]

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stor...irect&categoryId=10489&parentCategoryId=10481

Most speed shops should carry something and some will even refill the bottle. The new CO2 type shown below can be filled at the track but I haven't any experience with it (yet.)

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecId=3431

Beware, when you pull the cable (or push the button) it makes a heck of a mess. It's still better than the alternative!

 

[Defiant]

I do not want anyone to say the underhood insulation is a fire blanket. It is not.

 

[fallenauthority]

I do not want anyone to say the underhood insulation is a fire blanket. It is not.

Its a heat shield for the hood isnt it? To keep it from getting TOO hot?

 

[KuZo]

Thanks for the links!

Now, what would be more effective in stopping an engine fire (say gas, oil, electrical). The co2 version or the Halon systems?

I do not want anyone to say the underhood insulation is a fire blanket. It is not.

, if it were a fire blanket, what would it stop? Valve cover fires?

I remember the debate a long long time ago on that issue.

 

[mike b26]

All of the sanctioning bodies that I'm familiar with approve both Halon and CO2 (also called AFFF or aqueous film forming foam.) They're both effective in any automotive-type fire (oil, electrical, etc). However, I recall reading that Halon may be phased out because it is a greenhouse gas. The CO2 might be a better choice if you're environmentally conscious or just don't want to replace your system in the future!

 

[KuZo]

Great info Mike, thanks.

I was under the impression that it just sprayed CO2 in the engine bay, which I didn't think would be as effective as a foaming agent. Digging a little deeper I found out how the AFFF CO2 system actually works.

This website does a good job in explaining how the CO2 mixes with the foam to smother the flames.

http://www.dezod.com/pd_firecharger.cfm

I think I'll go this route, it's environmentally friendly and I don't have to worry about refilling in the future if I can't get halon anymore.



Any ideas on where to place the nozzel to get the best coverage of the engine bay?

 

[mike b26]

Depending on the bottle size, you could have up to 3 nozzles. With 2 nozzles you could place one on each side of the engine but I would consider one near the turbo and one near the fuel system. Of course with your experience, you might one near the oil filter! Also, there is a right way and wrong way to mount your bottle. The orientation may be dictated by your sanctioning body so check with them. Make sure it's easily accesible so you can check its charge each weekend and easily remove the pin.

 

[KBasham03]

yeah you wont have a easy time trying to find one that uses halon

 

[thekellbeast]

yeah you wont have a easy time trying to find one that uses halon

Halon is illegal to manufacture now.

As far as AFFF and CO2 goes, there are a few things. From a shipboard firefighting view, AFFF comes in 5 gallon buckets, and we mix it the hose water so it sprays foam from the nozzle. We use water as a propellant, and also to cool the fire.

That kit there doesn't use CO2 to fight the fire. It uses it as a propellant. We have some portable AFFF extinguishers in the engine room on the boat that work exactly like this kit. This is the same principle as PKP extinguishers. PKP is Purple Potassium Powder. It's a dry chemical that uses an external CO2 bottle to charge the extinguisher, and propel the powder. The amount of CO2 is insignificant for fighting fires.

AFFF fights fire by coating the surface (usually used in oil fires) and forms a foam which prevents oxygen from getting down to the oil, and prevents vapor from the oil from getting up to the oxygen. That's why it's important to maintain the vapor seal.

I've seen videos where AFFF was used to extinguish an oil fire on the ground, and then a firefighter walked across the foam. Where his bootprints were, the vapor seal was broken and the oil burst into flame again.

Our patented system uses AFFF with Carbon Dioxide (CO2) propellant

unlike Halon 1211 and Halon 1301 (which are widely used in racing in the U.S. In fact, all Halon agents have been outlawed in Europe and are no longer produced anywhere in the world).

We still have an installed Halon 1301 system on the boat

The FireCharger system cylinder is totally filled with a 6% AFFF / 94% water mixture.

That's exactly the same mixture we have on the boat. The AFFF is in jugs and the inline eductor automatically produces the same mixture.

The FireCharger system is activated by a pull cable which releases the CO2 propellant into the cylinder where it mixes with and aerates the AFFF mixture. At the same time the sudden increase in pressure opens the non-fragmenting rupture disc. This allows complete and total discharge through the piping to the extremely wide coverage nozzles found ONLY on a FireCharger system!

So in conclusion, this kit uses CO2 to spread the AFFF better. To call it a CO2 system would be wrong. A CO2 system, just has a CO2 bottle that discharges into the engine room. But now I'm beating a dead horse. OUT!

 

[KuZo]

Awesome, I knew we had firefighters on this board.

How much foam is produced from a 2.3L bottle, like the firecharger system? I want to make sure it gets enough coverage to snuff out a fire no matter where it starts in the engine bay.

If I place the nozzels on the firewall, will the foam cover the entire engine bay? More specifically, will get down to where the turbo is and the oil pump in front of the engine?

Or, a better question would be, where would you suggest mounting the nozzels for full coverage?

 

[thekellbeast]

Awesome, I knew we had firefighters on this board.

Lol, I'm not a real firefighter. On the boat we have to be qualified in damage control, so we have to be familiar with all of our equiptment. I also do all of the maintenence on the DC gear, so that helps too. We're trained to fight fires, but we're not firefighters. I don't want to come across like an expert when I'm not.

How much foam is produced from a 2.3L bottle, like the firecharger system? I want to make sure it gets enough coverage to snuff out a fire no matter where it starts in the engine bay.

That's something you would have to ask the manufacturer, but any good engineer will overdesign something so it can do its job and then some. 2.3 Liters is like half a gallon. We carry about 60 gallons of foam onboard the boat. To put that in perspective, we carry about 10,000 gallons of diesel onboard, and out engine room is about 500 square feet. I would think that it would be enough to blanket the engine of a compact car.

If you don't feel comfortable, they also make an identical system with a 4.6 liter capacity and 3 nozzles, as well as a few systems inbetween.

If I place the nozzels on the firewall, will the foam cover the entire engine bay? More specifically, will get down to where the turbo is and the oil pump in front of the engine? Or, a better question would be, where would you suggest mounting the nozzels for full coverage?

That, I can't answer for you. For our installed Halon system, we have one nozzle in the front of our engine room, and one in the back. All of our AFFF is in buckets that we apply through fire hoses, held by people.

But I would put nozzles near your biggest sources of fuel - your fuel system, and oil. With the two nozzle system, you could do both.

Learn about foam:
www.firehouse.com/training/drills/files/DM_0301.pdf
www.kidde-fire.com/utcfs/ws-465/Assets/Foam Fire Fighting Guide.pdf

 

[jdhutchin]

Halon, in addition to being a greenhouse gas, is very nasty if you accidentally inhale some of it. I would definitely stay away from the halon system.

 

[thekellbeast]

Halon, in addition to being a greenhouse gas, is very nasty if you accidentally inhale some of it. I would definitely stay away from the halon system.

Yup. The required procedure for using Halon on our boat is that you have to account for everybody, and make sure they're out of the engine room. And then the system has a 60 second delay and a tornado alarm. It means, in no uncertain terms, get the F away from the halon.

 

[KuZo]

snip..

Great info, even if you're not a "real" firefighter. Thanks man, I'll follow up with firecharger and see what they say about coverage and placement of the nozzles and post it up.

Do you have any recommendations on fire extinguishers for the interior, mostly for electrical fires. I've read that the dry chemical ones destroy surfaces and electrical connections.

 

[Defiant]

Halon is illegal to manufacture now.

And damn that law. The stuff is pure magic on fire. The amounts used in firefighting was trivial.

Odd, when it came out there was a segment on 60 Minutes touting that it was safe to be in a room with, unlike CO2.

 

[thekellbeast]

Odd, when it came out there was a segment on 60 Minutes touting that it was safe to be in a room with, unlike CO2.

We were always told that Halon would mess your day up. Maybe it was just a myth that got spread around. It could have gotten started with Terminator 2. Lol. I'm not going to risk it.

About dry chemicals - PKP will corrode electrical wires like no other. The best thing to do if you don't want to damage anything too much, is to use CO2. And secure the power to stop the sparking.

Classes of fire and how to fight them.

A - ordinary combustibles like wood, paper - use water (remove heat)
B - flammable liquids like diesel, oil - use AFFF (vapor barrier)
C - electrical fire - use CO2
D - burning metals like magnesium - knock overboard into ocean(it's your only hope)

Well, I guess they have some new stuff out to fight class D fires, but each type is metal specific.