Collapsed Lifter ?

[Black94DSM]

Ok so i have a question for you guys who have ever had this happen to you. About 3 or so weeks ago i was at the local drag strip making some passes. One of my passes I just so happend to find 2nd gear instead of 4th. DsmLink logged some high 9,8XX rpm! OUCH!!!!

Now the car is making some fluttering noise upon load. Somewhere around 3,500 or more rpm. It sounds alot like an exhaust leak, but I know its not. I took the valve cover off thinking that i possibly broke a spring or maybe even a rocker or something. From what i seen in there, nothing is harmed. The only thing else that i can think of is going to be a collapsed lifter, or a few. If that is the case, will it make this fluttering noise im hearing ? The car still drives fine, seems to make the same amount of power as it did before.

What would be the simptom of a collapsed lifter ?

I've already did a compression test and all of my cylinders are comming up with 145 psi cold. I have comp 200 cams, so i dont know if this is normal or not. I belive i had 150 before this all happened on a warm motor, so its still withen range.


A little help in understanding whats going on is all im asking. Becasue i am puzzled right at the moment.


Thanks in advance,

~Bob

 

[slipstream808]

I'm not sure about the collapsed lifter, but please:

Check your flywheel bolts!!!!

Quite a few people have had them back out when something like that happens. Just be safe than sorry.

 

[steve]

What would be the simptom of a collapsed lifter ?

In my case it sounded like rod knock but didn't happen twice per rev. It was so loud you could hear it 100 ft away.

Steve

 

[Defiant]

If your balance shafts are still there, their bearings saw nearly 20,000 rpm. And, are now dead.

Do a compression check for bent valves. You had more threat of lifter pump-up than collapse.

 

[Black94DSM]

If the balance shaft bearings are toast wouldnt they be making a whirring noise ?

The car dont make any other noise. It's quite as can be other than a few lifters ticking upon initial start up. Then they quiet up after its warm. I have the revised lifters in there.

The b-shaft belt is still in tact, and i did do a compression test as stated in my first post. The motor was cold when i did it, i had 145psi straight across.

This only makes the noise when i put a load on the motor. And from what i can hear when i was driving home from the track, it almost sounded like an exhaust leak. My buddy that was near me is his car said it sounded like a knock. So im still up in the air about this.

Thanks for the help so far guys.

 

[Black94DSM]

In my case it sounded like rod knock but didn't happen twice per rev. It was so loud you could hear it 100 ft away.

Steve

Could you hear it at idle ? Because in my case you can only hear it when i put a load on the motor. I cant even hear it when i free rev the motor, only while driving.

 

[steve]

Could you hear it at idle ?

Yes. I could hear it at idle and it would speed up and the engine did, load or no load.

Steve

 

[weith1111]

I think that a couple partially collapsed lifters wouldn't raise any red flags performance wise. You'd simply not be getting the best valve travel/not opening completely.

You could eliminate the lifters as the problem pretty quick and easy, pop them out and check them!

 

[Black94DSM]

Yes. I could hear it at idle and it would speed up and the engine did, load or no load.

Steve

Ok i see now. So maybe this isnt what im dealing with then.

I think that a couple partially collapsed lifters wouldn't raise any red flags performance wise. You'd simply not be getting the best valve travel/not opening completely.

You could eliminate the lifters as the problem pretty quick and easy, pop them out and check them!

And to do this check do i just take it out, and try to compress it ? If it compresses its bad right?

 

[weith1111]

And to do this check do i just take it out, and try to compress it ? If it compresses its bad right?

http://vfaq.com/mods/lifters.html

The lifter shouldn't stick at the bottom or the top, once bled it should move freely up and down in your fingers.

 

[andymoraitis]

You can test them with the lifters still installed. You may need to rotate the cams by hand so that the lifter is at the top of it's travel and the lobe isn't resting on the corresponding rocker arm. Simple finger pressure will reveal if it's collapsed or not.

Keep us posted,

Andy

 

[weith1111]

You can test them with the lifters still installed. You may need to rotate the cams by hand so that the lifter is at the top of it's travel and the lobe isn't resting on the corresponding rocker arm. Simple finger pressure will reveal if it's collapsed or not.

Keep us posted,

Andy

I'm thinking this may be a great shortcut, but won't the lifters be filled with oil (some of them at least) and be impossible to push down? You won't be able to get a paperclip in there to push down on the plunger either...

 

[andymoraitis]

I'm thinking this may be a great shortcut, but won't the lifters be filled with oil (some of them at least) and be impossible to push down? You won't be able to get a paperclip in there to push down on the plunger either...

I've found collapsed ones using this method, but they stayed locked in the down position when I rotated the cams.

If there's nothing obviously collapsed, then I'd certainly remove them. You make a good point!

 

[Black94DSM]

Ok i will do this. I think im going to just do it the correct way and take them all out of the head.

I did check them the way that Andy said, with them still in the head. I only checked a few though, obviously i need to check them all. But none of the ones i checked were ealily collapseable.

So to do this i should put a paper clip in the lifter then collapse it, let all the oil out. Now after i do that should the lifter be easily collapsable ?

 

[Black94DSM]

Just a little update.

Today I went outside to work on the car. I pulled the valve cover off it, and checked all the lifters. Every single one of them were perfect. They all held pressure great. So not one of them were bad.

So with that said, the lifters are out of the question for this weird noise I am hearing.


I guess I can drain the oil in the motor to see if it has any bearing shavings in it. Thats the only way I can think of to check my balance shaft bearings. Hopefully thats not my problem.

Any other sugguestions guys ?

 

[92awddsm]

I am also putting my money on a bad rear bs bearing. If it was a collapsed lifter(which you already ruled out), the noise would be there at idle or any rpm above that. I have run across this before and the a lot of the times, the bs will make no noises at idle or free revving, just under a load. A lot of the time, you might not see any shavings in the oil because they tend to settle in the bottom of the pan and dont come out when the oil is drained. If you dont see anything in the oil, you can have a sample analyzed but that usually takes time. One quick, easy way to check the rr bs is to remove the screw in plug from the rear of the block and use a thin screwdriver to see if you can feel any play in the bs itself. The best and most accurate way to tell is to remove the pan and inspect the bs from the bottom. Chances are if it is the bs, the bearing will be laying in the pan. Upon reassembly, install a magnetic drain plug to make future problem diagnosis easier.

 

[Black94DSM]

That's not what I wanted to hear. I think you are right though, I might just do that today.

Plans are to Check the oil first, screen through it with a paint screen. Then possibly take off the oil pan. UGH!

 

[Black94DSM]

Little update again.

Did a little more work to the car today, drained the oil. I didnt see any metal shavings or anything that resembles metal in the oil at all. I pulled the little plug out the back of the block to stick a small flatheaded screw driver in the hole. To my suprise there was no play in the BS. So confused i went to take my downpipe off so I can get to the oil pan. I went to loosen up the bolts to the o2 housing and both of them were loose.

UGH! It looks like it was pushing exhasut out of the o2 to downpipe gasket. I may have just gotten very lucky. So I reconnected everything back up.

I can't drive the car yet, im still waiting on my JM Fabrication Intake manifold to get here. Then ill be able to update this for once and final time.

I hope thats what it was, one stupid little gasket.

 

[andymoraitis]

It's funny how when someone mentions ticking we all automatically think lifters, tensioner, crank pulley and rod bearings. I feel like an idiot for not thinking of an exhaust leak.

Here's hoping that was it.

 

[Black94DSM]

It's funny how when someone mentions ticking we all automatically think lifters, tensioner, crank pulley and rod bearings. I feel like an idiot for not thinking of an exhaust leak.

Here's hoping that was it.

You know what, I'm right there with you. With these types of cars (DSMs) you just have to expect the worse. Thanks for support. I'll get back with you to let you know the results.

 

[steve]

Now the car is making some fluttering noise upon load. It sounds alot like an exhaust leak, but I know its not.

If it is just a leak I'm sure you'll be kicking yourself for a while.

Steve

 

[92awddsm]

If it is just a leak I'm sure you'll be kicking yourself for a while.

Steve

That is the reason why I never thought about an exhaust leak.

 

[Black94DSM]

I can only wish i will be kicking myself.

 

[Black94DSM]

Ok, update time. I got the car running, took it for a spin. It makes more noise now because of the manifold....everything sounds loud through sheetmetal.

As far as the noise from before, yes its still there.

If my balance shaft was off a couple teeth would that give me alot of vibration? If not would it make a sound like what I described earlier?

 

[Black94DSM]

Just thought I would let you guys know. The motor in the Talon is now no more. Its got a rod knock pretty bad now. Only evident when I just get on the throttle. Any hard load it gets quieter. But man is it bad. I guess the noise was something in the bearings of the motor.

Looks like i'm pulling the motor in the talon alot sooner than I had originally imagined.