1G: Parasitic Drain Help

Shabazz · 06-25-2012, 03:27 PM

After searching for what feels like decades, I cannot find a similar enough thread to help, so I decided to finally post after being a member for a looong time. I apologize in advance if i missed something! Anyway.. For months now my battery won't start after sitting for a couple days. Replaced that battery and alternator and both checked out as good. After hooking up a multimeter, though, i found there is still a .15/.16 amp drain on the battery. I have 3 positive cables attached to my battery + post, and immediately after taking the first one off it dropped to .000. But after unplugging everything i could find attached to it there was still the same draw. I checked the fuse box in the engine (passenger side with batt, alt, etc fuses and relays), lights, alternator, and every fuse under the steering wheel. I tried looking at a diagram, but electrical diagrams easily trump my skill, especially since I'm kind of a noob at fixing car problems anyway. Any help is appreciated!

DSM1G90 · 06-25-2012, 04:30 PM

Let's go in reverse here: Don't start at the source, but begin with the targets.

Have an amp hooked to the source that is not keyed? Disconnect the amp and other ACC to see if that stops the drain.

Shabazz · 06-25-2012, 04:39 PM

Sorry, forgot to mention that. Cd Player, amp, gauges, aftermarket alarm, everything not factory is out of the car completely. Before I took it all out, though, I rewired it just in case. Obviously didn't help. So I just took it all out. That's when I got the drain of .15 amps.

luv2rallye · 06-25-2012, 05:53 PM

Every item on the car, except the starter's big cable, goes through at least 1 fuse (most go through a large fuse that goes to many smaller fuses to the items). You said you checked them but did you remove all fuses everywhere while checking the current draw? One of them has to carry the current.

Did the large positive battery cable you removed that ceased the draw go to the starter positive post?

Disconnect all non-stock wiring.

Shabazz · 06-25-2012, 06:14 PM

I believe I removed all fuses but I could be wrong. All from the fusebox under the steering wheel (radio, cigar, door locks, etc.). All the big fusible links and relays just above passenger tire. And after removing them the current never drops. At one point I had all of them out with no change.

Oh also the big cable I took off that stopped the draw went directly and only to that fuse/relay box where the 80amp alt fuse is. If I take the cable off either from the battery directly or the fuse box it cuts the draw to 0.

I unplugged the alternator at the alternator, both the clip and the power from the battery at the beginning (knowing the notorious alternator was usually a suspect). If the alt is completely unplugged and even taking the power cable off the other side of the 80a alt fuse the draw doesn't change.
I was wondering if my alarm might somehow be the culprit. It was installed when I got it and I don't think it is factory. I found the black box under the steering wheel and just disconnected everything from it but I don't know if that would be good enough for the test. Maybe if it gets power from some weird location perhaps? Electrical is my weak point but I will attempt any suggestions. Thanks in advance!

New developments last night. Drove into town for some medicine and when I reconnected all the fuses relays etc, i lastly put on the ground wires to the battery post and some small sparks flew. Not much, but I didn't know ground would produce sparks. Anyway, I also noticed the power windows didn't work at all for either side. Then on the way home as I turned in the driveway, the car acted like it was shorting completely out. All the power including the engine kept cutting in and out the length of the driveway. It was just for a second, but you notice when the engine seems to die and all the lights, radio, etc suddenly die and then start back up.

luv2rallye · 06-27-2012, 12:26 AM

1) Reattaching battery cable is normal to have a one time small 1/2 second spark (charging any capacitors in circuit).

2) All aftermarket devices ESPECIALLY AN ALARM SYSTEM are suspect current draws. You must completely disconnect them to locate draw (since many people connect their power source from an incorrect place). Consider aftermarket alarm, amplifier, radio, turbo timer, etc, ANYTHING wired in that's not stock.

3) Make sure battery is tied down with positive terminal covered. If not it can short out against hood or added strut bar.

4) There are 3 places under hood where fuses are: on battery positive, over passenger wheel, behind drivers strut. And of course under steering wheel.

5) It's normal to have around 50mA max draw to the ECU and radio memory combined. After market alarm is unknown but it shouldn't draw hardly anything when off.

Shabazz · 06-30-2012, 08:49 AM

Sorry I was away and couldn't reply. That night I drove it I left the alarm system out, so I assume it didn't have anything to do with that. I have done a quick check and can't figure out why my power windows won't work. The fuses in the engine are all still in good condition but the draw is still there. The windows may be shorting or in some way causing the draw but I'm not sure what to look for in order to figure it out.

Today: just went back out and replaced all the fuses inside the car. Still no alarm CD player or anything aftermarket hooked up. Replaced all the engine fuses as well and checked draw. Still .15. Took the door panel off and everything seemed fine but windows still didn't work. Checked window fusible link and relay both seemed fine. Pulled batt fusible link and draw dropped back to .02. Putting batt fuse back in and pulling alt sensor fuse gives the same result. Nothing else produced the same results. Now I'm still confused as to what this means and why I didn't see similar results earlier.

luv2rallye · 06-30-2012, 12:07 PM

The key must be on for the windows to work. When key is on, the power window relay (in the engine compartment) is activated which supplies power (through a 30 amp fuse in the engine compartment) to the windows up/down switches. There is also a 10 amp fuse (inside the car, top row 3rd from left) that is used to activate the relay (from ignition switch). You cannot always be sure a fuse is good by looking at it (may have hairline crack or broken at ends). You must check for continuity through it using a multimeter, or trying it in another circuit of same amperage.

A 0.15A draw is usually not a short - it's more like the normal draw of something like an alarm, dash light, etc. Remember when your doors are open there may be a draw even if no interior lights come on and definately when they do come on, so keep them closed.

Did you physically remove every single fuse in the car (all at same time) yet and check for draw?

DSM1G90 · 06-30-2012, 12:43 PM

Quote:

but I didn't know ground would produce sparks.

(Just a small side note to add to this discussion and for you to remember):

We live in a world thinking that DC current flows from positive to negative since it does look obvious that something positive heads to a negative to complete a circuit to balance out.

Unfortunately, in the real world, DC current flows Negative to Positive (why lightening bolts LOOKS like they're coming from the clouds, but in all due actuality, the bolt is heading TO the clouds being the clouds are positive charged and the earth is negative charged) ...

This is why we TRY to tell car owners, when working on their vehicles, to disconnect the NEGATIVE battery cable .... and why it sparked on you when you connected the NEGATIVE cable back on the battery.

A lot of sports car hobbyists will add multiple ground cabling from the battery to different points, mainly on the motor and such, to really get the current flowing to have major performance increases. My Laser has three ground points: to the firewall, transmission and to the INT manifold. I've seen attachments to the shock towers, ALT mounting brackets, and motor block.

True, in the olden days when 6 volt charging system were the norm, the batteries were POSITIVE grounded with the NEGATIVE running the current to the starter. But, when 12v systems came out, they followed the "idealistic" current flow of Positive to Negative ... and that's were we are at today.

Hope you don't mind this science lesson.... Good luck, finding current leaks are a PITA at times. - DSM

luv2rallye · 06-30-2012, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSM1G90

This is why we TRY to tell car owners, when working on their vehicles, to disconnect the NEGATIVE battery cable .... and why it sparked on you when you connected the NEGATIVE cable back on the battery.

NO! The reason we say disconnect negative first (and connect it last) is for safety. Negative is connected to the frame. Most people use metal wrenches to disconnect battery. If your disconnecting positive first and they accidentally touch metal with the wrench (which happens a lot) there would be a direct short across the battery (since the negative is still connected to frame). The result usually is wrench melting and burning of your hands. Disconnecting negative first prevents this.

The spark is from the large initial current surge required to start charging up completely discharged capacitors in the circuit since an uncharged capacitor is a short circuit until it starts charging. If after a couple seconds you then remove the battery cable and put it back on, you will not see any spark since the capacitors still have charge and no longer pull that large initial surge. If you wait long enough with the cable off, say an hour or a day, the caps may be discharged by then so you will then see it when reattaching the cable. The time depends on the capacitor size and it's discharge rate (through attached circuitry and itself). Many devices have internal capacitors that are attached directly to the power input (even though the devices switch may be off). Examples are the ECU memory, radio memory, some large amps.

As far as which direction current flows it's a matter of your point of view. Negative charges (usually called electrons) go from negative to positive but positive charges (like current in transistors) go from positive to negative. For electronics, the "theory understanding" and equations are easier grasped by the human mind (and equations work out better) by using the positive current flow theory (positive charges flowing). For many high power applications, the negative current flow theory (electrons) works out better for human understanding and equations. Thus you have the 2 different theorys in existance (and both may be correct).

Shabazz · 06-30-2012, 05:25 PM

I like the science lesson! Very interesting! Anyhow..the fuse in my multi meter had a tiny crack which apparently threw off my readings. I found out later, though, my CD player caused a draw and made it jump from .022 to .156. If I unplug the yellow 12v constant memory wire the draw disappears. I assume that means the cd player is bad? It was in a wreck but it works fine other than the draw (and it does turn off when the key is off).

The windows are still not working unfortunately. The relay and fuses are fine, I double checked and swapped with known working ones. The power side mirrors work but the power locks no longer do. I'm not sure why it suddenly just stopped working. I'm not getting any voltage from the wires in the clip that goes directly to the switches on driver or passenger side. I assumed there would be. I checked with key off, acc, and on. Power mirrors and power lock on driver side both had one wire with .5 volts with key on and on the passenger side the mirror was .5 but the power lock plug had no voltage at any wire. I tried looking at wiring diagrams but couldn't figure them out. Thanks again guys for quick replies!

DSM1G90 · 06-30-2012, 06:48 PM

Quote:

would be a direct short across the battery

...and batteries blowing up spewing acid on to the users face... heard of cases doing that...

Thx for the into also..makes sense. -DSM

luv2rallye · 06-30-2012, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shabazz

my CD player caused a draw and made it jump from .022 to .156. If I unplug the yellow 12v constant memory wire the draw disappears. I assume that means the cd player is bad? It was in a wreck but it works fine other than the draw (and it does turn off when the key is off).

1) When did this jump? When you turned key on, CD player on, or???
2) Does the player have a radio in it or anything that would need memory to stay in tact when key is off?
3) Does the player work ok when constant memory wire is disconnected?
4) 156mA (.156A) doesn't sound like a short and sounds high for a memory (which are usually less than 20-30mA). Still that may be normal for your player...or it may not. You'd have to read the manual to see. It would be about right for a light in the player. So I wouldn't assume it's bad yet. If it works ok without that wire then just leave it disconnected and you're done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shabazz

I'm not getting any voltage from the wires in the clip that goes directly to the switches on driver or passenger side. I assumed there would be. I checked with key off, acc, and on.

Are you talking about the window switches? If so, with key on you should get +12v there on the blue wire (with negative meter lead connected to frame/body). If you don't, check voltage going into (both blue-red wires) and out of (blue) the power window relay. These are wires under the relay which it plugs into. Large blue-red should always have voltage. Small blue-red only with key on. Blue with relay activating and power on the blue-reds.

Shabazz · 06-30-2012, 08:18 PM

Ok well first off its an eclipse cd5415 cd player. I am going to try and go through these to help you help me lol.
1) the draw jumped as soon as I connected the memory wire with the key off
2) yes it has settings etc to save and 3) unfortunately it won't turn on without that wire connected
4) no idea what it is supposed to draw yet, downloaded a manual to try and figure it out. I do know that it doesn't have any lights etc on when the key is off.

I checked the voltage under the relay and was surprised to find 2 plugs under that box slightly unplugged. Plugged them in all the way and boom, windows worked! Now most of my electronics work again yay! I will check it all again in the light of day (and the 100° heat) and see what else I can find. Thanks for that suggestion!

DSM1G90 · 06-30-2012, 08:34 PM

Wonder if the MEM circuit is bad in that section (like a shorted diode or cap) to do the draw... If you have another player, maybe do a swap to "condemn" one or the other.

Shabazz · 06-30-2012, 08:49 PM

I was wondering the same thing since a diode caused my previous alternator to draw power the same way. I just sold my only other CD player a couple months ago or I would try switching them out. Maybe there's a local shop that could look at it and see. Can't spare money for a luxury such as music with college coming up ugh..

luv2rallye · 06-30-2012, 09:51 PM

Many radio/cd player combos require the memory wire to be connected to +12V for them to turn on. I'm not familiar with your cd5415. Is that a radio/cd combo or just a cd only? And aftermarket or original equipment?

TrevorS · 06-30-2012, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luv2rallye

NO! The reason we say disconnect negative first (and connect it last) is for safety. Negative is connected to the frame. Most people use metal wrenches to disconnect battery. If your disconnecting positive first and they accidentally touch metal with the wrench (which happens a lot) there would be a direct short across the battery (since the negative is still connected to frame). The result usually is wrench melting and burning of your hands. Disconnecting negative first prevents this.

Thanks for explaining this, I've been wondering about it for awhile. To me, the obvious disconnect is the positive, not the negative, but there had to be a reason for the universal recommendation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shabazz

After searching for what feels like decades, I cannot find a similar enough thread to help, so I decided to finally post after being a member for a looong time. I apologize in advance if i missed something! Anyway.. For months now my battery won't start after sitting for a couple days. Replaced that battery and alternator and both checked out as good. After hooking up a multimeter, though, i found there is still a .15/.16 amp drain on the battery. I have 3 positive cables attached to my battery + post, and immediately after taking the first one off it dropped to .000. But after unplugging everything i could find attached to it there was still the same draw. I checked the fuse box in the engine (passenger side with batt, alt, etc fuses and relays), lights, alternator, and every fuse under the steering wheel. I tried looking at a diagram, but electrical diagrams easily trump my skill, especially since I'm kind of a noob at fixing car problems anyway. Any help is appreciated!

I suspect the answer to the problem has already been presented, but let me reinforce that if there is excessive load on the battery (and 150mA is definitely excessive), then disconnect everything non-OE and step by step determine which circuit causes the excessive load. If you added circuits and are not confident of the requirements or behavior of the circuits, then anything and everything you did is surely suspect. Roll it back to the OE layout and then gradually work back out from there.

Shabazz · 07-01-2012, 06:36 AM

It is aftermarket and a radio/CD player combo. I couldn't find anything other than it draws 3 amps when running but the manual doesn't say anything about when the key is off. I may have to make some kind of switch to disconnect it when I turn the car off so it won't drain the new battery.

TrevorS · 07-01-2012, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shabazz

It is aftermarket and a radio/CD player combo. I couldn't find anything other than it draws 3 amps when running but the manual doesn't say anything about when the key is off. I may have to make some kind of switch to disconnect it when I turn the car off so it won't drain the new battery.

The radio normally has two hot connections. One is always hot just like the ECU (for remembering station tuning and other presets), the other is switched in with the "ACC"essory ignition circuit (for the amplifiers and mechanisms etc). Presuming that's how you have it wired, then you're saying the always on circuit is drawing 150mA? If that's the case and disconnecting it verifies the drain stops, I'd contact the manufacturer because it sounds defective to me. If that's not how you have it wired, then correct the wiring.

Shabazz · 07-01-2012, 10:58 AM

I know it is wired correctly, I've rewired it myself from factory using a harness and every wire is connected well. I believe it is just defective

. The constant power wire is the only one that makes a difference in draw. But if it isn't connected, the unit will not power on with the key in any position. Would it be wise to wire it to a switch with inline fuse holders before the switch and cd player? Just as a temporary solution until I can replace it, of course.

TrevorS · 07-01-2012, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shabazz

I know it is wired correctly, I've rewired it myself from factory using a harness and every wire is connected well. I believe it is just defective

. The constant power wire is the only one that makes a difference in draw. But if it isn't connected, the unit will not power on with the key in any position. Would it be wise to wire it to a switch with inline fuse holders before the switch and cd player? Just as a temporary solution until I can replace it, of course.

I'd suggest disconnecting that wire from the "BAT" source and connecting it to the "ACC" wire instead. That way the battery will be safe and you won't have any additional switches to bother with. Should be good enough to get by, but hopefully you can swap it out for a better working head unit ASAP. If the manufacturer says the 150mA is normal, then I'd return the unit to the retailer immediately and avoid that manufacturer like the plague. Good luck!

luv2rallye · 07-01-2012, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrevorS

I'd suggest disconnecting that wire from the "BAT" source and connecting it to the "ACC" wire instead. That way the battery will be safe and you won't have any additional switches to bother with.

Yes, that's better than switches (which do the same thing esentially) but then you'll lose all the station presets when the key is off (as you would with switches too). If this doesn't bother you then go ahead.

Shabazz · 07-01-2012, 02:59 PM

It does bother me but other than a different CD player I'm not sure what I can do to keep my presets and settings saved. Better that than no music though. All that's left is to hook up the alarm and make sure it doesn't draw anything excessive. I'd honestly keep it out but I love the remote entry. Thanks guys, I'll check back in tomorrow with the results after the alarm.

luv2rallye · 07-01-2012, 03:12 PM

Ya 150mA is way too excessive for just saving memory presets. Either it's defective or you have some exotic function in that player.

Just thought of something. Do you have a power antenna? If so unplug it and check draw. Sometimes those antennas get stuck and then continuously draw power (even if it's all the way up/down). And since they must still work after key is off, it may be drawing power through that wire.

Shabazz · 07-01-2012, 06:03 PM

Actually the antenna and amp are still not hooked up, the antenna stopped working when I hooked this CD player up.

luv2rallye · 07-01-2012, 07:36 PM

I'm talking about the antenna motor power wire.
The antenna motor stopped working when you hooked this CD player up? Could it be perhaps you connected it wrong and burned out part of the player? Some antenna motors require a power wire to operate while others require a ground connection (either way the radio is supposed to provide it but most radios only do one way).

Shabazz · 07-02-2012, 06:57 AM

If it is a wire that comes from the head unit then, yes, it is not plugged in. There is a wire for the power antenna and one for amp. I disconnected both assuming they were the culprits and it didn't change the draw. If it is the big cable in the back that allows you to receive the radio signal, that is still plugged in. I had a Sony xplod that had an adapter that went onto the cable that won't fit this CD player. I'll go unplug it and see if that works. Hopefully not since I listen to my iPod through radio.

Shabazz · 07-03-2012, 08:31 AM

Still no luck. As soon as the CD player is connected it drains, regardless of what is connected. I have all wires except 12v power, ground, and speaker wires disconnected. No power antenna etc. I'm going to try and borrow a stereo today and see if I can make it work without draining.

DSM1G90 · 07-03-2012, 07:00 PM

Are you using an adapter harness that hooks up to the stock radio connections, or are those stock connections cut off where you're pigtailing the lines direct to the CD unit?

I wonder if you got the wrong connection heading to the 12V to the radio.

the chassis of the radio has to be grounded to the car's chassis. Mounting HDWE usually makes this ground via the mounting brackets that bolts up to the radio opening.

DSM uses two grounds-the chassis ground and the system (black lead) ground.