2G: pics of balance shaft timing

[spyderdrifter]

I've searched for info on balance shaft timing setup and can't find any pictures of everything lined up with the timing belt. For some reason, my computer won't open my pdf manual that I know has it and my phone doesn't open pdf's anyway. If anyone has pics of this so I can reset my timing, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks ('97 7-bolt, all stock)

[bryanwheat]

What problem are you having? The mark for the front shaft is a little notch on the case and there is an arrow on the pulley. Line the arrow up with the mark on the case when the crank is lined up with the timing mark. For the rear you will need to pull the plug in the back of the block out and install an allen wrench to make sure that the shaft is in the correct spot and line up the oil pump sprocket with the mark on the cover.

This was the first picture from a google search.

[DSM1G90]

The easier trick on the oil pump BS sprocket BS phasing is to roll the sprocket til the pointer is straight up and let it go.

..from VFAQ:

NOTE that there is an easier way to do this. Simply rotate the mark on the oil pump sprocket until it is pointing straight up, and let it go. If the sprocket rotates towards (counterclockwise) the timing mark on the engine, the oil pump sprocket is aligned correctly. If it rotates away (clockwise) from the mark, spin the sprocket a full turn and test again, and it should properly rotate towards the mark now. Now line the mark on the sprocket back up with the mark on the engine. This avoids having to remove the rear access bolt entirely.

[dexterholland04]

^^This is how I always ensure the rear balance shaft is in phase.

[spyderdrifter]

Thanks bryanwheat, pics are much better for me than explanations. However, I'm thinking I may just say screw it and get the balance shaft eliminator kit. My last dsm (6-bolt) already had the eliminator and was so much easier to time. Thanks for the pic and info.

[Stmguy42]

good tech picture.. i say eliminate the balance shaft as well that way all you have to do is concentrate on the oil pump and the tb being timed n tdc

[spyderdrifter]

Originally Posted by Stmguy42

good tech picture.. i say eliminate the balance shaft as well that way all you have to do is concentrate on the oil pump and the tb being timed n tdc

Yeah, I ordered a balance shaft eliminator kit from ATM a little while ago. Should have it next week hopefully.

[spyderdrifter]

So along further observation, I looked up an install guide for the balance shaft eliminator kit and there's two bearings listed by part number. Only two. The kit I ordered shows three bearings. Is this right? Is there supposed to be a third bearing, if so, where does it go?

[bryanwheat]

You don't really need the bearings. You can just remove the ones in the block and turn them so that they block off the oil holes. You only need 2 of them. The rear hole doesn't have an oil passage. All you really need is the stubby shaft and the plug for the oil pump. Make sure that you get the oem stubby shaft or else you will destroy the oil pump.

[spyderdrifter]

Originally Posted by bryanwheat

You don't really need the bearings. You can just remove the ones in the block and turn them so that they block off the oil holes. You only need 2 of them. The rear hole doesn't have an oil passage. All you really need is the stubby shaft and the plug for the oil pump. Make sure that you get the oem stubby shaft or else you will destroy the oil pump.

Awesome, thanks. I am getting an oem stubby shaft with the set, and it does have the oil grove in it. I read about that on another post.

[spyderdrifter]

Ok, so I don't have the right equipment to remove the balance shafts, so I'll just deal with having them in there for now, I got a new balance shaft belt last week anyway. I threw the belt on, but my manuals aren't very clear on the timing marks. Here's a pic of how I set up my belt, is this possitioned properly? I've never had to do the balance shaft belt before and want to make sure this is set up properly before continuing with the timing belt.

[DSM1G90]

Looks good.

Pulley lip is on the outside as its supposed to be.

All marks line up.

Does the belt have a quarter inch of deflection when you press in on the top of the belt?

[mchustle]

If I were you I would go ahead with the bse. I didn't do mine and it ended up messing up the seal when the sprocket messed up, so I had to replace a timing belt that had 600 miles and replace the front case seals when I did the bse. That's just my oppinion.

[spyderdrifter]

Originally Posted by DSM1G90

Looks good.

Pulley lip is on the outside as its supposed to be.

All marks line up.

Does the belt have a quarter inch of deflection when you press in on the top of the belt?

Don't know how much deflection I have at the moment. Will do the rest tonight after work. What position should the pulley be in, like how tight? Just enough for 1/4 inch deflection?

Originally Posted by mchustle

If I were you I would go ahead with the bse. I didn't do mine 2and it ended up messing up the seal when the sprocket messed up, so I had to replace a timing belt that had 600 miles and replace the front case seals when I did the bse. That's just my oppinion.

What seal and sproket are you referring to? Did you try removing any part of the BS system prior to that happening which could have led to the sprocket and seal messing up?

[mchustle]

Originally Posted by spyderdrifter

Don't know how much reflection I have at the moment. Will do the rest tonight after work. What position should the pulley be in, like how tight? Just enough for 1/4 inch deflection?




What seal and sproket are you referring to? Did you try removing any part of the BS system prior to that happening which could have led to the sprocket and seal messing up?

Nope it was all good when I did the belts, it just randomly broke and started flipping around and broke the little lip the seal sits in on the front case. I'm just happy the belt didn't fly off into the timing belt, that could have really sucked lol. I guess it was just old age seeing as its a 90 block. You also have to keep in mind when hearing my horror stories that I have the worst luck possible. A bse will be added to my list of maintance any time I get a new Dsm from now on though, it's just not worth the risk to me personally.

[spyderdrifter]

Originally Posted by mchustle

Nope it was all good when I did the belts, it just randomly broke and started flipping around and broke the little lip the seal sits in on the front case. I'm just happy the belt didn't fly off into the timing belt, that could have really sucked lol. I guess it was just old age seeing as its a 90 block. You also have to keep in mind when hearing my horror stories that I have the worst luck possible. A bse will be added to my list of maintance any time I get a new Dsm from now on though, it's just not worth the risk to me personally.

Which sprocket and seal are you referring to? And what tools do I need to remove all these parts?

[DSM1G90]

What position should the pulley be in, like how tight? Just enough for 1/4 inch deflection?

Sorry on that .. forgot to mention when you press down on the belt inbetween the two sprockets, there should be a quarter inch of deflection before the belt tightens up, or if you can barely twist the belt close to a quarter turn, then the belt has the right abount of tension..and this goes for any belt install.

Too loose and the belt might hop off the sprocket and too tight you will get a "singing and howling belt".

[spyderdrifter]

Originally Posted by DSM1G90

Sorry on that .. forgot to mention when you press down on the belt inbetween the two sprockets, there should be a quarter inch of deflection before the belt tightens up, or if you can barely twist the belt close to a quarter turn, then the belt has the right abount of tension..and this goes for any belt install.

Too loose and the belt might hop off the sprocket and too tight you will get a "singing and howling belt".

Awesome, I was out in the garage a little while ago and had a retarded moment and forgot to check the deflection. Was too preoccupied torquing the head back on. I'll check tomorrow after work though. Thanks for the help.

[spyderdrifter]

Ok, here's the next issue. I just checked the deflection, its good to go with the 1/4 inch. Now I'm at the point of torquing everything down so I can do the timing belt. My manual calls for 35ft lbs (48Nm) for the balance shaft pulley. My problem with this is that I know the front case is cast aluminum and the bolt is steel. I've tightened the bolt a few times with my torque wrench and it still hasn't clicked at 35ft lbs. I don't want to over tighten this bolt and strip all the threes in the front case. What should I do at this point? I work with aluminium, steel, & titanium at work, and I've had to remove countless bolts and screws from all kinds of hard to reach areas and types of metal and composites over the last decade, so I know how bad this can turn out if things go bad. Need additional options or suggestions before I move on.

[DSM_love_GST]

when was the last time to had your torque wrench calibrated? Do you always store it properly?
Torque Tips - Metrology Concepts

[spyderdrifter]

I've only owned it for a month. I store it like any I would at work, completely zeroed out to release the spring tension. However now that I think of it, I guess I could use my other torque wrench, its one of them with the pointy bar on it. That ones never let me down. Guess I'm going back out to the garage since I forgot I had it.

[spyderdrifter]

Well, no such freaking luck. My other torque wrench is doing the same thing. I really don't want to be stripping threads here. Don't want to be buying a new front case and doing all this crap over again.

When torquing with this other torque wrench, it'll only go up to 25ft lbs.

[spyderdrifter]

I'm sure this is getting very boring to you all and repetative, but I just need to be sure before continuing. Maybe I'm being too anal about it, but this is only the second timing job I've done, and the first to include the BS parts. Anyway, I think I got the tension pulley bolt for the BS issue taken care of. I now got the timing belt on and after many mis-trys, I got it where I want it, hopefully. My chilton manual says to rotate everything clockwise 2 rotations. I did this, and everything still lines up, except the the sprocket in the very lower right corner, I think that's the oil pump sprocket, but it's not even near the oil pump.. correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, my last rebuild, which was a 6-bolt block with 7-bolt head, I remember being told to rotate everything 6 full rotations. I did that, and everything lines up again. Did I do this all right? Here are some pics for varification. These were after the 6 rotations...

[DSM1G90]

Six Rotations, not just two.

Why the six rotations so that all the pulley/sprocket marks all come back to their respective reference points on block and head.

Also, your autoadjuster is WAY out of spec. There should only be .157 to .175 gap between the top of the adjuster and the lip of the tensioner pulley tang. One shouldn't EVEN see the grenade pin hole in the adjuster rod.

Outside of that, all looks good. Congrats on the accomplishment ! I remember when I did my first, took me half the afternoon to get it all exact..and that was 27K miles ago now.

Being a 7bolt, hope no potiential crankwalk issues?

Good luck - DSM

[spyderdrifter]

Originally Posted by DSM1G90

Six Rotations, not just two.

Why the six rotations so that all the pulley/sprocket marks all come back to their respective reference points on block and head.

Also, your autoadjuster is WAY out of spec. There should only be .157 to .175 gap between the top of the adjuster and the lip of the tensioner pulley tang. One shouldn't EVEN see the grenade pin hole in the adjuster rod.

Outside of that, all looks good. Congrats on the accomplishment ! I remember when I did my first, took me half the afternoon to get it all exact..and that was 27K miles ago now.

Being a 7bolt, hope no potiential crankwalk issues?

Good luck - DSM

That damn autotensioner has always bugged me. I got all he special timing tools, but I think the screw that goes in through the side of the timing covers is bent slightly since it won't thread all the way down to the tension pulley arm. Might have to go to Home Depot tomorrow for a suitable replacement. Glad I did the six rotations.

Also, the 2pin holes on the bottom side of the tension pulley, on the 6-bolt I did last summer, those holes were supposed to be on the bottom like I have this one in my pics. Is the 7-bolt supposed to be the same way, or a different position?

I've never delt with the crank walk before so I don't yet know what to look for. When I drove it, everything felt fine and normal.

[DSM1G90]

I made my own out of a length of 8mm rod and two 13mm nuts jammed together so i could put a socket on the end of one of the nuts.

Holes are fine on the tensioner pulley.

Some users do this trick: With the grenade pin in place in the adjuster, you have the adjuster pulley bolt loose you you can roll the pulley "counterclockwise" (for your 7bolt, 6 bolt goes clockwise) where the pulley bracket presses down on the adjuster rod to where the grenade pin begins to loosen up, then lock down the pulley bolt. Let it sit for the 15 min and do the six rotations.

If the grenade pin is still barely loose with a bit of resistance when you turn it after the six rotations, pull the pin and you're done.

If not, you gotta do it all over again until the pin has a bit of resistance when you turn the grenade pin.

This trick eliminates the adjuster threaded rod.

good luck-DSM

[spyderdrifter]

That sounds kinda promising, I'll give it a shot in a few minutes. I'll update as needed.

[spyderdrifter]

And the problems just keep coming.... my adjuster rod is now stuck and bending more as I try to loosen it, and I can't find my vice grips.....

[spyderdrifter]

Originally Posted by DSM1G90

Some users do this trick: With the grenade pin in place in the adjuster, you have the adjuster pulley bolt loose you you can roll the pulley "counterclockwise" (for your 7bolt, 6 bolt goes clockwise) where the pulley bracket presses down on the adjuster rod to where the grenade pin begins to loosen up, then lock down the pulley bolt. Let it sit for the 15 min and do the six rotations.

If the grenade pin is still barely loose with a bit of resistance when you turn it after the six rotations, pull the pin and you're done.

This trick eliminates the adjuster threaded rod.

good luck-DSM

Well, after a few tries of getting the tensioner to cooperate, I fianlly had success. The tensioner rod pin hole isn't visible now when viewed from a level angle. 6 rotations and everything still lines up and the tensioner is still at the right spot. Thanks again bro, I'm about to try to figure out how to give you good rep for this.

[DSM1G90]

Thx always and glad to help - my services always to you

..Good luck with the build and happy along with safe driving!

(on the bottom of your post there is a "add rep points" link where you click on it to make your call.)

-DSM