2G: Big brake advice

[suspektu]

Hi. I'm planing to buy a big brake kit with 14' in front and 13' in back and the only good deal i could find is on TCE breaks. I sow a lot of people are using Evo breaks and some others Nissan 370z rotors or Cobra with Brembo calipers. Is it any other option to get big brakes with decent price and perfect fitting?

[agarc023]

Have you looked at baer's big brake package?

Personally I went with the evo brembo's

[2slow4now]

There are a few ways you can go about getting upgraded brakes. Evo brembos along with a bracket but the used sets of brembos (front and back) will end up running you $500 us. Then your still looking at buying rotors at ? cost (depends on what you want). Then you have to either fabricate or purchase brackets. I would venture to say you will end up spending $800 for a pieced together big brake kit.
How do I know? I went with the 2g 3000gt vr4 option. I got a set of 4 piston fronts and 2 piston rears for about $300. Some work and $150 for rebuilding and painting them myself. Front and rear slotted rotors for $250. Then purchased brackets for the front at about $100. Then I had to make spacers to set them right with the rotors. Free at work but at a shop $50 or so. Big brake kit front and back for around $800.
Why 14" and 13"?

[SOADweskey]

It depends on what you find. I got my evo calipers and rotors for $500 and the brackets were $110. I have been enjoying them so far. And unless you are building a serious road race car 14"rotors are really more than needed.

[2slow4now]

^^^^ You got evo's front and back and rotors for $500?

The only reason I went 3kgt was I found them cheap and in great shape.
Well either way you will end up spending a good chunk of change to get what you want.

[suspektu]

Originally Posted by agarc023

Have you looked at baer's big brake package?

Personally I went with the evo brembo's

I did...they are 13' and they don't have the rear ones...and i want to have the same calipers on all 4 wheels.

Originally Posted by 2slow4now

There are a few ways you can go about getting upgraded brakes. Evo brembos along with a bracket but the used sets of brembos (front and back) will end up running you $500 us. Then your still looking at buying rotors at ? cost (depends on what you want). Then you have to either fabricate or purchase brackets. I would venture to say you will end up spending $800 for a pieced together big brake kit.
How do I know? I went with the 2g 3000gt vr4 option. I got a set of 4 piston fronts and 2 piston rears for about $300. Some work and $150 for rebuilding and painting them myself. Front and rear slotted rotors for $250. Then purchased brackets for the front at about $100. Then I had to make spacers to set them right with the rotors. Free at work but at a shop $50 or so. Big brake kit front and back for around $800.
Why 14" and 13"?

I want 14''....and 13'' beacuse i will use 18'' rims and i don't like to have big rims and small brakes/rotors....but also i want them for breaking distance because the drag track in my town have a small braking distance. I know 13'' will perform good enough but if is not so big difference in price i would like 14''. About this i sow a thread where a guy use 14'' Nissan 370z rotors with Brembo Evo calipers....but i'm not sure if this will fit perfect without cutting and grinding even with the right brackets. The front and rear from TCE will cost me around 3000$ and i was wandering if i can cut a little bit this price and get the same look and performance.

Originally Posted by SOADweskey

It depends on what you find. I got my evo calipers and rotors for $500 and the brackets were $110. I have been enjoying them so far. And unless you are building a serious road race car 14"rotors are really more than needed.

In the beginning maybe it will not be a serious race car...but i'm aiming for 11s and after i will want more so i want to do the things right and buy brakes only one time.

Thanks everyone for reply.

[suspektu]

To not open a new thread i'll just bring this one back to live. In few days i want to order everything i need to upgrade my brake system and i'm not so sure if is should go with Evo Brembo calipers because of the clearance issue. I want to ask if some know the dimensions of the Evo X caliper and the size of the 2g caliper. I'm trying to find out if i can find a Wilwood or other brand caliper that's the same like the Evo Brembo but much thinner. I'm just wandering if i can get some calipers from Wilwood front and back and use them with Evo X or 350z rotors in front and build my own brakets and something thats bolt on in rear with Evo rotors. Thanks!

[jtmcinder]

Brembos are over-hyped and over-priced. You had the right idea a year ago when you said TCE.

And please let go of the idea that you want or need the same calipers front and back, and definitely let go of the idea that you need giant rear rotors on a 2G. Instead, let Todd (TCE) set you up with something with the right bias or you could end up with a car that either doesn't stop or survives only as long as the rear ABS channel.

ps. I know that English is not your first language, but the "breaks" for "brakes" are killing me.

[suspektu]

Originally Posted by jtmcinder

Brembos are over-hyped and over-priced. You had the right idea a year ago when you said TCE.

And please let go of the idea that you want or need the same calipers front and back, and definitely let go of the idea that you need giant rear rotors on a 2G. Instead, let Todd (TCE) set you up with something with the right bias or you could end up with a car that either doesn't stop or survives only as long as the rear ABS channel.

ps. I know that English is not your first language, but the "breaks" for "brakes" are killing me.

I'm just follow your advice one more time and order a TCE brake kit. Sorry for bad writing...i didn't notice the mistake i made till you pointed out

[99gst214]

If its just for daily use, and you are wanting an upgrade for cheap, have you considered the Outlander upgrade? Cheap and wont kill your brake bias. Just a thought.

[Ludachris]

Originally Posted by suspektu

To not open a new thread i'll just bring this one back to live. In few days i want to order everything i need to upgrade my brake system and i'm not so sure if is should go with Evo Brembo calipers because of the clearance issue. I want to ask if some know the dimensions of the Evo X caliper and the size of the 2g caliper. I'm trying to find out if i can find a Wilwood or other brand caliper that's the same like the Evo Brembo but much thinner. I'm just wandering if i can get some calipers from Wilwood front and back and use them with Evo X or 350z rotors in front and build my own brakets and something thats bolt on in rear with Evo rotors. Thanks!

Why work so hard to adapt Evo/Brembo brakes? The performance isn't going to be any better than what you'd get from a TCE Wilwood kit. TCE has made kits for our cars for quite a while and has many options to choose from. They use Wilwood calipers, and have different calipers to choose from too. I'd stick with them for the money. You can get a 4-piston kit or even a 6-piston billet kit - again, just depends on your budget and needs. The FSL kit will be just as good as any OEM brake caliper you try to adapt in terms of performance. If you want that flashy look, you can opt for powder coating of the caliper when you order.

I know the hot thing to do right now is the Evo Brembo kit, but honestly, I'm not super impressed with that option. Evo guys upgrade their brakes to something better than what came on their car, some of them going to the same Wilwood calipers that you'd get from TCE - not all Brembo calipers are great, certainly not all that come on OEM applications. They're typically smaller and have a little more flex than their racing calipers. The good racing calipers from Brembo are expensive. The comparable caliper from Wilwood can be had for much less and offer better performance than the OEM calipers you're trying to adapt. If you had more cash, you could even look at Stoptech kits.

[jtmcinder]

Since this thread is back, I'd like to add that running 18" wheels and big brakes is, to be blunt, a crazy thing to do when the car is aimed at drag-racing. For drag-racing, you want those 3000 GT VR4 brakes, instead, since they fit inside a variety of 15" wheels. That's what I have on the front of my Evo. That's what a lot of rallycrossers run. The trick on many cars is the rear, but on yours it's simple.

ps. If Evo Brembos are "hot," then I'll put mine up for sale. They are extremely heavy and a crappy design. If Brembo didn't have a monopoly on FIA homologation and an inexplicable relationship with certain good car makers, they'd no longer exist. The most over-hyped brakes evah!

[Sebba]

Yup. They trap heat like a mofo.

Wilwood ftw.

[Lou98GSX]

if i had to upgrade i would go with TCE Wilwood kit . they everything you need for the upgrade

[nickk90]

Originally Posted by jtmcinder

Since this thread is back, I'd like to add that running 18" wheels and big brakes is, to be blunt, a crazy thing to do when the car is aimed at drag-racing. For drag-racing, you want those 3000 GT VR4 brakes, instead, since they fit inside a variety of 15" wheels. That's what I have on the front of my Evo. That's what a lot of rallycrossers run. The trick on many cars is the rear, but on yours it's simple.

ps. If Evo Brembos are "hot," then I'll put mine up for sale. They are extremely heavy and a crappy design. If Brembo didn't have a monopoly on FIA homologation and an inexplicable relationship with certain good car makers, they'd no longer exist. The most over-hyped brakes evah!

Do VR4 calipers fit with stock GST wheels?

[2slow4now]

No 3kgt vr4 calipers won't fit stock wheels. You need at least 17" wheels and the caliper clearance is a bunch more than most wheels because of the 4 pot design.

[estoyaqui30]

I have been looking at the TCE kits too. I read about so many people switching to the EVO Brembos, but you have to mess with the vacuum booster and master cylinder. I was talking to Todd at TCE and he was telling me that his kits don't have those issues.

[Ludachris]

Originally Posted by estoyaqui30

I have been looking at the TCE kits too. I read about so many people switching to the EVO Brembos, but you have to mess with the vacuum booster and master cylinder. I was talking to Todd at TCE and he was telling me that his kits don't have those issues.

People are only going the Evo Brembo route because they can find them used relatively cheap (well, cheaper than the Wilwood kits from TCE brand new) and the calipers are shiny red and say Brembo on them. The brakes themselves don't perform any better, and in some cases, not as well as the TCE kits. You can get a beefy Wilwood caliper in a TCE kit that will outperform the OEM Brembo from the Evo and the kits are designed for your car by a guy who has put a lot of time and effort into designing the kits - compare that to the Evo brakes, which people are throwing on because they simply got them to fit. No real engineering has gone into those brakes for these cars.

Don't just go with what the popular trend on this one if you're looking for the best option, because most in the DSM community tend to go with the cheapest "good" option, not the "better" option that costs a bit more, and certainly not the "best" performing option. The mentality here is that they'll put on anything (it can be from an Evo, a VR-4, etc) that looks cooler and performs better than what they currently have so long as they can do it on the cheap. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about the innovation that comes with adapting solutions from other cars when there is no other current option available, and I applaud people for trying different things. But in this case, there are a couple great options available - TCE kits and Stoptech kits. Both of which were properly designed for your car, and only the TCE kits have several options available for multiple types of driving. Many just don't want to pay that much for big brakes.

[jtmcinder]

Let me say a bit more about Brembo hype. I just took the giant Brembos off my Evo X and replaced them with small, 4-pot Wilwoods. How much of a change in size? The Brembos on an X force you to run 18" wheels; my new Wilwoods fit inside 15" wheels. This swap cost me less than 9%, as in: my car takes a tad less than 9% more distance to stop from 60 mph than before. And that's with Wilwood's least-aggressive (-10) pads and the bias set way to the rear for gravel and dirt.

Oh, and the new set-up weighs 14# less per side in the front.

If you want hype, heavy, and dusty, get the Brembos from an Evo. Otherwise, Wilwood.

[suspektu]

I didn't check this thread so i have an update. I did order the TCE brake kit front and rear and i don't think i could get something better then this on the same price. Here are some pictures of the front wheel with 14'' rotor and radial mount caliper:

[estoyaqui30]

Originally Posted by Ludachris

People are only going the Evo Brembo route because they can find them used relatively cheap (well, cheaper than the Wilwood kits from TCE brand new) and the calipers are shiny red and say Brembo on them. The brakes themselves don't perform any better, and in some cases, not as well as the TCE kits. You can get a beefy Wilwood caliper in a TCE kit that will outperform the OEM Brembo from the Evo and the kits are designed for your car by a guy who has put a lot of time and effort into designing the kits - compare that to the Evo brakes, which people are throwing on because they simply got them to fit. No real engineering has gone into those brakes for these cars.

Don't just go with what the popular trend on this one if you're looking for the best option, because most in the DSM community tend to go with the cheapest "good" option, not the "better" option that costs a bit more, and certainly not the "best" performing option. The mentality here is that they'll put on anything (it can be from an Evo, a VR-4, etc) that looks cooler and performs better than what they currently have so long as they can do it on the cheap. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about the innovation that comes with adapting solutions from other cars when there is no other current option available, and I applaud people for trying different things. But in this case, there are a couple great options available - TCE kits and Stoptech kits. Both of which were properly designed for your car, and only the TCE kits have several options available for multiple types of driving. Many just don't want to pay that much for big brakes.

I completely agree with Chris on this. Plus the EVO Brembo conversion is not always so cheap, I was talking to Paul at JNZ Tuning about it, because I get all my OEM parts from them. He said if the calipers need to be rebuilt, the rebuild/seal kit is over $100 for the fronts and only a little bit less for the rears. Not to mention then you need to get a bitter master. However I have read that the EVO master is too long and won't fit without doing a hammer adjustment on the front wheel well. So you need to get a 3G eclipse unit. Todd at TCE told me that his kits have all of the same total piston area, so there will be no problems.

[boost97gst]

Wilwood is THE name in brakes in the sportbike world. Pricey and well worth it. Now days most come stock with brakes that will stop on a dime tho so the upgrades are for race only.

[ACM]

Originally Posted by boost97gst

Wilwood is THE name in brakes in the sportbike world. Pricey and well worth it. Now days most come stock with brakes that will stop on a dime tho so the upgrades are for race only.

Not relevant to this thread, but the above statement is about as far off the mark as it's possible to be !

Wilwood are nowhere in the sportbike world - nowhere, not least because they don't even make calipers for sportbikes. They do make calipers for Harleys - hardly something one would class as a sportbike regardless of one's opinion of them.

Amusingly, the highest accolades in the sportbike world - at least where ferrous rotors are mandated - are awarded to Brembo. Look at the front of any WSBK team and see what calipers are mounted - hint, check Honda, they're the only team running a different caliper. If there was anything better you would see it in this series.

Charles

[Ludachris]

Let's keep this in perspective here - if we look in the racing world we'll see all the big names, including Brembo and Wilwood, among others. The brake calipers you see in racing are quite different than the ones you see on OEM applications. And that's what we're getting at here. You can't just point to racing and name the brake kits used there. The Evo OEM calipers are not racing calipers. I do like Brembo racing calipers but they are extremely expensive and nobody here would likely end up using their racing calipers because they're cost prohibitive.

The idea is usually to get the strongest, most rigid caliper that will hold up to all the abuse that will be thrown at it - a caliper that is engineered to work with your specific application. This is why I push people towards TCE, because Todd has kits for all driving types - daily driving with spirited sprints, drag racing, autocross and road racing, etc. All of which will be solid kits engineered for your car.

If you're going to be tracking the car quite a bit at road courses, TCE has a solid track kit with Wilwood FSL calipers. You can also consider the Stoptech kit, known to have some of the most rigid calipers in the industry - their kit retails for right around $2k. Brembo does make an aftermarket kit for the 2g that has stronger calipers than the ones on the stock Evo, and it retails for over $3k. Personally, I like the TCE Wilwood kits and the Stoptechs for the money.

I wish AP Racing made kits for our cars. Those are some crazy good brake kits too.

[TSiAWD666]

Stillen used to sell a kit with AP Racing calipers (unsure of the rotor source) for the 2g turbo at one point. Can't say if they ever sold it directly themselves or through other distributors. Was very similar to the Stoptech kit I have up front with ~13" rotors, aluminum hats, a big beefy aluminum caliper (don't recall if it was two piece or mono), though I can't recall if the rotor hats were floating or not.

Even if they don't now you can just get those galant knuckles and then choose from all the evo brake setups out there (as long as you swap to the 3g master cylinder), including AP Racing setups.

[ACM]

Sorry Chris, I just wanted to make the point that boost97gst's post was incorrect.

The Brembo calipers on all but one WSBK teams are the exact same brake calipers fitted to the Aprilia RSV4 bikes sold on the street, as well as on the recent generations of Ducati sportbikes. I'm not sure which Brembo caliper is fitted to the Suzuki GSXR street bikes, I haven't looked closely.

[spoolingreen20]

Does the Wilwood 140-8292 kit fit the factory Talon 16 inch awd wheels?

[ACM]

Originally Posted by spoolingreen20

Does the Wilwood 140-8292 kit fit the factory Talon 16 inch awd wheels?

I had that kit on my autocross car for a few months - the calipers clamshell horribly, they flex so much you basically have no brakes.

They will fit with Kosei K1 16" wheels, but I doubt OEM wheels will have sufficient clearance for the caliper body.

[spoolingreen20]

Originally Posted by ACM

I had that kit on my autocross car for a few months - the calipers clamshell horribly, they flex so much you basically have no brakes.

They will fit with Kosei K1 16" wheels, but I doubt OEM wheels will have sufficient clearance for the caliper body.

Ok. Thank you. I thought I heard that they don't fit just had to make sure before I bought some 17's.

[ACM]

I don't think you will find any opposed piston calipers fitting with OEM DSM wheels, simply because the caliper body will be too deep.

Typical opposed piston caliper depth will be in the order of at least 2-3" - even the small calipers in the Wilwood kit mentioned are a couple of inches from the rotor face to the outer extremities of the caliper body - VR4 and Evo Brembos are deeper still. OEM 2G AWD calipers are barely 1 inch depth, so a wheel designed to fit OEM calipers is unlikely to fit anything else. The above calipers are what I have lying around in the workshop (for cars) that I can measure easily.

The beefier Wilwood calipers are probably bigger (ie deeper) than the above calipers, so even less likely to fit. Several members run Todd's front kits, hopefully they can chime in with measurements of their calipers ?