I need Suspension Tuning

[Detail]

Guys,
I need help and advice. I currently have the equivalent of a 900 capable car with standalone and no dyno or dyno tuner capable of fixing it up. That's how my suspension feels.

I've finally now purchased and installed every piece of the car's suspension. For reference I drive a 95 Eagle Talon Tsi Awd and I now have 188k on it. I started the suspension overhaul from stock suspension all the way around. To date I have:

Energy Master bushing Kit (red) installed.
RM front and rear roll bars installed.
JIC coilovers ordered through my old shop installed.
Rear subframe custome solid urethane bushings (installed and loud as a mofo)
Ingalls Adjustable front ball joints installed.
Ingalls longer screw/spacers rear alignment kit installed.
17x8 35mm offset 5Zigen Fn01rc shod with BFG KDW2 225-45-17's

Previously my car sat up like a truck. My mechanic insisted on hammering the car, since then I've bought new tires which decreased ride height further. (basically I have about an 1" of clearance between the tire and fender). The spring seats are just tight enough to keep the spring from flopping around. I didn't tighten them up(increase spring rate) much from the factory. I have the rebound set at 10/15 in the front and 12/15 in the rear. The car looks sick. But...it rides like ASS. Straight up, the car is way to low. I don't have enough turn in. There is a little to much understeer. The suspension will make your chest shake on the highway because it rebounds so fast. I live in Atlanta. I need to get this setup right so that I don't kill myself for spending so much coin.

What do I do? I'm willing to try different springs, sign NDA's, pay for advice...whatever it takes. But where do I start with the tuning? Ride height suggestions for street? Anyone have any suggestions on alignments? How about if anyone actually knows somone in Atlanta, potentially Gran Turismo East, that can fully setup this system? I'm about to offer Muller some coin to fly out here and do this right...I'm that upset about the current ride. Seriously, what do you think? I'm not some newbie. I've been in the community for a long time. Any...go buy this or your setup is junk comments can be kept to themselves. I'll be a guinea pig but I gotta have somewhere to start.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Alignment specs? Are you looking for track or looking for fun street. That energy suspension kit is most of your harsh ride on the street, no matter how you tune those JICS. The understeer could be coming from either your alignment or from you the driver. Its upsetting to hear, but sometimes the most frustrating and time-spending tuning is done on driving. You, the driver mod. But hell, lets work on the car, post up an alignment sheet.

 

[Boo5t_Addict]

The more negative camber up front, the less understeer you will have. The downside being, of course, tire wear. AWD's traditionally do suffer from a bit of understeer though.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

also with your JIC's, set the dampening in the front softer and the rear more stiff.

 

[asian312]

Is this a street car only, or are you looking for something more catered to tracking or auto-X your car? Second question, which JICs did you get (FLA-1, FLA-2, SF-1)?

I would start with the ride height first. Slamming it too low decreases suspension travel and could possibly cause you to ride on the bumbstops. If you're looking to spend some dollars on getting them dialed in, you could go as far as getting them corner weighed. Depending on which model of the JICs you have, you may want to seek out RRE (Muller)and request some basic hieghts and adjustment settings to get a starting point.

Next step, alignment. You need to ge the height set first as the stance of the car will affect the camber and toe settings. I run a common street/strip alignment you often see thrown around of -1.75-2 in the front and -0.75 in the rear. Up till about a month ago I was running too much rear camber which really made the car understeer in corners. Once taken out and realigned, the rear follows the fronts much more naturally and scared me at first because it felt like the rear was stepping out. Over time I've learned this is how its suppose to be.

Unfortunatly ride qulity is probably being most affected by the ES bushings and the sub frame bushings. One thing i didn't see on your list is replacement control arms. With 188K miles on the rest of the car, I'm sure those ball joints have seen better days. Last bit, if you do take it to a race shop to have you suspension tuned in, make sure they understand AWDs.

PS: Do you have a link to those custom rear subframe bushings?

 

[Detail]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm going to have to answer this in multiple posts as I have to go out to the car to get the alignment settings from the glove box.

This car is my daily (only car) and is driven 99.8% of the time on the street. That may change as I get the car working better but for now thats where she lives.

I purchased the flt-a2's.

The car is low and definetly is bottoming out on the big dips in the road. I'm talking the highspeed highway dips in the pavement. No lie, I hit my head on the roof this morning coming to work. Raising the car is the first step.

In regards to asking Muller I'm all about it. Considering I didn't purchase the coilovers from him I'd doubt that he'd over any suggestions but I'll be calling them shortly. If anyone is local to them and could give insight how how he might react to the call I'd love to hear.

Spoke to some serious Porsche racers yesterday. They suggested Gran Turismo as the only people in the Atlanta area that they'd let even touch they're suspension. So they'll be phyiscally doing the tuning I guess. http://granturismoeast.com/

The control arms were done at 133k under warranty.

I disagree about the harshness of the es bushings. I installed them months ago before the coilovers. They are hands down the best thing I've done to the car since I've owned it. The steering is much tighter and the control over bumps was insanely better. Feel wise: It felt like I put new shocks on the car. They don't rattle or squeak (yet). PS. Even with a rack and all the tools in the world (including a huge press) better give yourself a day to get all the bushings done. Broke a rear trailing arm while doing the install just to make it a little more exciting.

The rear bushings were custom made. When I say that I mean I purchased the aluminum ones from DV\DT fab. http://dvdtfab.com/One look at them and I decided not to install because I knew the aluminum would be REALLY loud. Don't get it wrong, his customer service was great and I was satisfied with what I paid but I decided to take the bushing DVDT made (which were excellent btw) and took it to the killer machine shop in Alpharetta http://www.percryo.com/grimes.htm (just north of ATL). The older owner (80+) hand lathed me new ones to the same specs and found washers for the ends. The older gentleman is a legend in drag racing apparently. Buddy drives a 600hp grand national or something as his daily driver which is crazy considering his age. Anywho what I'm getting at is that they are 1 of 1. To anyone looking to do this mod...be ready to hear your drivetrain make some noise. The good side is that the rear diff DOES NOT MOVE AT ALL.

 

[Detail]

Here are the alignment settings as printed off the machine in pdf format:

 

[asian312]

Thanks for the info on the bushing. I was curious if you were talking about the DV/DT ones. Looking to sell that aluminum set?

Anyways, back to your alignment. Yeah that would make the car pretty reluctant to turn. Right after I lowered my car, my fronts and rears were almost the same. The car felt like it just wanted to understeer off the track. You have significantly more in the rear and almost none in the fronts. Couldn't even begin to wonder the end result.

I can't comment about the shop, but a race type shop w/ a good reputation will generally be a little more particular about precision and more knowledgeable about how it affects the car. A lot of Firestones, NTB, etc. just get things to fall within spec and send you off.

Well if you were comfortable with the ES bushings, then we have a reference for your level of comfort. Knowing that you need an alignment and assuming this isn't your daily driver, I'd bump the height up and take it for a test drive to see if that reduces some of the harshness. If you need a starting point, my fronts are 13.5" and 14" in the back from fender to center cap. If this is your daily, it might not be a good idea as changing the height could change the toe and promote premature tire wear.

On the control arms, did you have all 6 in the front replaced or just the two laterals?

 

[Detail]

Here is the part of my recall printout: