Most logical brake upgrade for my case?

[TSi SPY 007]

Hey guys,

I've done some searching and none of the threads really answer my Q's so here goes (and if there are relevant links to threads, then please post them because I wasn't able to find any)... I'm probably going to "upgrade" my brakes next and I'm curious what you guys would recommend for my particular case. Here's my scenario:

My Car: My '96 TSi AWD (76, 000km's) has a moderately-modified engine (cat-back, hard intake, IC piping, Type-S BOV, ported big 16G, 190lph pump). On a day-to-day basis, I don't drive my car hard (so no real repetitive, hard braking to stress the rotors enough to warp/crack them), although I do enjoy the odd "spirited drive". The Talon is my daily driver. I normally run the factory 16" in the winter and 18" in the summer, but I have a set of 17's that I can use in the winter (if it turns out that you guys think it's best if I upgraded the size of rotors as well.)

What I'm after: I'm hoping to upgrade to a "stronger" system that will not feel "mushy" (I've had the chance to drive some Audi's and Benz's that have great factory brakes and I hope to at least come close to that kind of feel). I'm not sure if I can accomplish this by simply getting some slotted rotors for more bite and cooling, along with better pads, SS lines and better fluid, or if I should get a system with better calipers.

My budget: I would like to keep the cost as low as possible (naturally, I don't want to spend extra if I don't have to), but I'm willing to fork out the extra cash to do things right the first time around. I've been reading about 4-piston Wilwoods and 2-piston Baer systems for the front... There seems to be lots of talk amongst the autocross crowd regarding "brake upgrades", but I'm not sure if those hard-core systems they discuss are fit for me... I hope you guys can offer suggestions.

Summary: So, I guess my basic question is whether I should 1) upgrade to just aftermarket rotors (e.g. PowerSlots, Brembos), pads, SS lines and fluid, or 2) upgrade to a complete system including switching calipers (like the Wilwood or Baer ones). Please include the names of companies that make these parts and where I can get a hold of these parts.

Thanks for bearing with me, guys... I always appreciate your patience with my big-@$$ questions and your thoughtful responses.

Fred

 

[bfdahl]

I would get some Metal Master pads and try them out and, see if you like the way it stops.
these are street pads by the way im not sure how they would handle a track day.

Anyway, try them out and if that is not tight enough for you I recomend Stoptechs.
I think for the money there the best value for the buck.

I was in your shoes a few months back and this was my conclusion.

PS ck RREs sight in the garage sale section they have a slighly used set for 1200$ i think
wish i had seen this in march!

 

[jtmcinder]

I would get some Metal Master pads and try them out and, see if you like the way it stops. these are street pads by the way im not sure how they would handle a track day.

They can't take any heat at all.

With that said, I agree with you. The thread-starter should try some decent pads, maybe with SS lines, and bleed the system completely. Anyone on 18" wheels is clearly not committed to minimizing unsprung weight, so why bother with lighter calipers?

- Jtoby

 

[Eagle 5]

They can't take any heat at all.

With that said, I agree with you. The thread-starter should try some decent pads, maybe with SS lines, and bleed the system completely. Anyone on 18" wheels is clearly not committed to minimizing unsprung weight, so why bother with lighter calipers?

- Jtoby

My tires weigh more than my wheels do, some 18's are light.

Would it be possible his brake booster is bad and is causing the mushy brakes? I agree with the ss lines as if the rubber lines are old and worn out then their would probably be lots of mushiness there.

 

[slugsgomoo]

i wouldn't pony up for stoptechs if you're not racing. Frankly the Baer big brakes are the cheapest true brake upgrade available, and they work very well for a STREET car that sees light abuse (as compared to a car that gets flogged all the time).

The way i see it is, TCE/willwoods are over $1200, stoptechs are around $1700, and Baers are like $750-800.

If you're not going to use the extra couple hundred (or thousand) bucks worth of braking, why bother. I've seen those Baers haul a full weight GVR-4 down from ridiculous speed with no problem.

If you're going racing, then my thoughts change substantially.

jtoby's idea of trying SS lines, and better pads is probably a good one. It's amazing how bad OEM spec brake pads are.

 

[Rx3]

They can't take any heat at all.

With that said, I agree with you. The thread-starter should try some decent pads, maybe with SS lines, and bleed the system completely. Anyone on 18" wheels is clearly not committed to minimizing unsprung weight, so why bother with lighter calipers?

- Jtoby

That about covers it. The SS lines will definitely firm up the feel of the brake pedal. It would also be a good idea to fully flush the system of all the old brake fluid as well.

 

[pianoman]

What about the brake booster brace that mach v sells.

 

[jtmcinder]

What about the brake booster brace that mach v sells.

That's a 1G issue. - Jtoby

 

[TSi SPY 007]

Wow, thanks so much for the responses, guys! Really appreciate it...

I do care about unsprung weight, but realistically-speaking, i'm not a racer on or off the road, hence I chose some "light" 18's to get what I deemed the best balance between "rice" and "performance". Why am I saying this? Well, I've taken this approach all along with this car, and this is the same approach I'm taking now that I'm in the market for brakes. I'd like to upgrade the performance, but I'm not after something that an auto-x'er or what a roadcourse racer would be after.

What other reputable and tried replacement rotor companies are worth considering other than PowerSlot and Brembo? I've read on various forums that the Brembo's tend to rust more than the PowerSlots; is this true?

Once again, I really appreciate all the thoughtful responses.

Fred

 

[TSi SPY 007]

Can anyone with Brembo rotors confirm whether they "tend to rust like the factory rotors"? I read that somewhere on one of these forums but can't locate the post anymore...

Thanks.

Fred

 

[SlowSpyder]

Can anyone with Brembo rotors confirm whether they "tend to rust like the factory rotors"? I read that somewhere on one of these forums but can't locate the post anymore...

Thanks.

Fred

All cast iron rotors will rust unless they are coated or plated

 

[TSi SPY 007]

Don't the genuine Brembo's come zinc-coated? That's why I'm confused how come there were posts about how PowerSlots resist rust while the Brembo's don't... I can't find that info on the Brembo website anymore; can anyone help?

Fred

 

[jtmcinder]

My Powerslots rust. Of course, this is only a cosmetic issue, since one good stop and they're clean.

- Jtoby

 

[TSi SPY 007]

Yeah, that's what happens with the factory rotors... probably seems like a silly concern to some people, but I was hoping that I could choose an aftermarket replacement that won't rust, although I'm not sure if that's possible. The posts I saw before about the Brembo's rusting claimed that they "rust on the edges like the factory rotors". Comments?

Thanks, guys!

Fred

 

[TSi SPY 007]

Btw, I've been reading about brake bias, "especially for a lowered car or one with stiffened suspension"... how crucial is it that I do all 4 corners at once, rather than just the fronts at the monent?

Thanks.

Fred

 

[Omega]

Btw, I've been reading about brake bias, "especially for a lowered car or one with stiffened suspension"... how crucial is it that I do all 4 corners at once, rather than just the fronts at the monent?

Thanks.

Fred

Considering ~70% of the braking is done up front? It's not crucial. 99% of the time, the rears are done for looks.

 

[pianoman]

My Powerslots rust. Of course, this is only a cosmetic issue, since one good stop and they're clean.

- Jtoby

Same here. Although I had Axxis Metal Master pads with slotted rotors and didn't experience any brake fade, although the fastest I was braking from was about 80-85. The few times I braked over 100 they still were good, but it wasn't repeated like it was when I was braking from 80.

 

[jtmcinder]

Try left-foot braking to 5 psi coming out of 10 corners in a 45-second period. Just make sure there's lots of room for this experiment, since you won't have any brakes (assuming Metal Masters) by the end of it. And, no, please, in this case, don't ask me how I know.

- Jtoby

 

[pianoman]

Left foot braking yes, but not in 10 corners in 45 seconds...... it was a 3rd gen lude not a dsm too. But I trust your experience over mine...

 

[98spydert]

TAnyone on 18" wheels is clearly not committed to minimizing unsprung weight, so why bother with lighter calipers?

- Jtoby

Whoa, not true. I dropped from 24 lb stock 16s to 18.5 lb 18s

Of course I drive a FWD Spyder so I'm not looking for the absolute lightest, most race oriented wheel on the market for my non-race car

 

[TSi SPY 007]

Heheh. Yeah, my 18's weigh around 19-20 lbs each, but I guess the mass is more spread out towards the radius of the tire/wheel combo.

Anyway, those of you with the Brembo zinc-plated rotors on their cars, could you please post a pic of them showing what colour the zinc really is in real-life? I'm leaning towards either the Brembo slotted or their cross-drilled, and they come zinc-coated... and my wheels are bronzey, so they might look silly behind the wheels (in which case I'll just stick with the cadmium-coated Powerslots).

Thanks so much!

Fred

 

[Rx3]

Heheh. Yeah, my 18's weigh around 19-20 lbs each, but I guess the mass is more spread out towards the radius of the tire/wheel combo.

Anyway, those of you with the Brembo zinc-plated rotors on their cars, could you please post a pic of them showing what colour the zinc really is in real-life? I'm leaning towards either the Brembo slotted or their cross-drilled, and they come zinc-coated... and my wheels are bronzey, so they might look silly behind the wheels (in which case I'll just stick with the cadmium-coated Powerslots).

Thanks so much!

Fred

1) DO NOT GET CROSS-DRILLED ROTORS. If you see how badly these things can crack (I had a set of Brembo cross-drilled that I just took off after 2 years of use), you wouldn't put them on your car. Cross drilled rotors are for motorcycles, and race teams who can replace their rotors every couple races.

2) The color of the rotor zinc plating looks fine with Bronze wheels, although the color of the plating should be the least of your concerns. As long as it does the job, who cares what color it is?

 

[TSi SPY 007]

Thanks for the tip, RX3. Would you consider yourself as being hard on your brakes, though?

As for the colour itself, it's a rice thing. Well, even if I go with some slotted rotors, I can choose between the silvery Powerslots (slots right to the perimeter) or the bronzey Brembo's (slots within boundaries of the braking surface)... so, I'd like to try the Brembo's but if they're the same bronze as my wheels, then I'll go Powerslots.

Fred

 

[Todd TCE]

All cast iron rotors will rust unless they are coated or plated

True. Even with the plating on them the porous nature of cast iron they all rust in time.
How fast depends on the environment they are used in, how thick it is, and the finish level of the iron under the plating.

This plating thing stated back about 8 years ago I think. We never did plating until the rotors on show cars began sporting it. And many being pushed they never scuffed the surface under the pads even!

I'm sorry to be frank about it but the true value is what I can "box appeal". Meaning they look great in the box on your porch. After that they just become functional parts like all the rest and die a slow death....

*If you want something that lasts longer do electroless nickel. And about 5mil thick. Way more costly however.

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

1) DO NOT GET CROSS-DRILLED ROTORS.

In the two years we have been in business we have sold hundreds of the Brembo rotors that are cross drilled and we even run them on all of our cars, competition and street and we have NEVER had one crack. We have never had a customer bring a cracked rotor to our attention either.

just food for thought.