AutoX suspension Question

[DSMvroom]

AutoX season is coming up and I'm lookin for suspension upgrades.

Springs and struts are planned already, but you can throw your $.02 about combinations if you want with reasons.

Besides that, i know i could add a front upper and rear upper sway bar.

The goal: Maximized reduction in understeer
The questions:

1) Am I able to add a rear lower bar?
2) What combination of the three different sway bars would be best in attaining the goal?

Appreciate the help!

 

[jtmcinder]

Wow, do you have some reading to do.

With regard to the specifics you raised, there are no such things as an "upper" or "lower" sway bar. Sway bars are sway bars, even when one end of the car has more than one. You are probably thinking of strut-tower braces, which ought to be on your list, but nowhere near the top. Those are popular early mods because they are cheap and anyone can install them. Even worse: about 90% of all rear braces I've seen for 2Gs are just added weight.

Most of all, you need to go read the rules. Assuming you'll be ruuning with the SCCA, they are on line somewhere on http://scca.com

- Jtoby

 

[cait sith]

Good luck reducing understeer with a FWD car with an open front diff.

First, you need to figure out if you're willing to spend a lot of money, and you're going to go for a nationals level car (Good luck with that!), or if you're doing this for kicks. What class do you want to be in?

And by "Springs and Struts" I hope you do not mean "lowering springs".

 

[jtmcinder]

Good luck reducing understeer with a FWD car with an open front diff.

Keep in mind that, while the suggested front LSD for autocrossing -- viz., a Quiafe -- will reduce corner-exit (power-on) understeer, it will also increase corner-entry understeer. The new problem can then be countered with some front toe-out, but that will increase tire-wear a lot. I'd still do both of these things at some point; I'm just reminding everyone of the absence of free lunches.

My first recommendation stands. The thread-starter should only spend money on books for now.

- Jtoby

 

[DSMvroom]

Wow that was very humbling!

Yes, I was thinking of tower braces then.

I do like to autoX, but it is only a hobby. Big money is not in the budget! That means no LSD. I wouldn't be able to install one myself.

By coils and springs, I had Tein Type Basic coilovers in mind because I wouldn't know what to do with damper settings anyway.

You guys got any links to point me in the right direction for suspension info?

Besides the coilovers, are there any *relatively* inexpensive parts to use that would help keep the car in balance?

 

[jtmcinder]

Thanks for taking it well. That deserves a more-detailed answer.

If you read my Read My First thread http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169955 you will see that I'm big on setting a budget and goals in advance. Given what you have said, I'd suggest a new, thicker rear swaybar as #1. The other cheap fix is an alignment: zero rear toe and the spec maximum of front toe-out. The remaining question is how much are you going to pay for your shocks and springs. The best low-cost option is Illuminas with ProKits. I've autocrossed on such and it isn't that bad. It's not good, but it's better than stock and you cannot go lower without much higher springrates. As to the tower-braces, you really won't see much benefit -- it will all be in your mind -- and the last thing you need is more weight up high in the front. Without sticky tires and a decent suspension, the rear is just bling bling (and some people think it's still bling bling unless you have a sunroof). Get the front brace if you insist, but I'd really be saving my money to get better shocks and springs and/or tires.

Are you running in the street-tire class (STX) or have you already done something to the turbo so you're in street mod? You really don't have a competitive car, so the class doesn't matter that much, but you have to keep the preparation rules in mind. I was in your boat a few years ago. I had a bone-stock 2G AWD on the original RS-As but my wife had given me strut-tower braces, so I was in E street prepared. Rough introduction to the sport, let me tell you.

- Jtoby

 

[Zero Bar]

I know that feeling. I found out at the beginning of this season that my bov alone will put me in street-mod, ouch! I just put on some slightly wider wheels and better tires and what a difference. My sway bar is on it's way and suspension is shortly after. Best thing I've done so far is an alignment, it was the best $80 I've ever spent.

 

[DSMvroom]

VERY useful!

I've learned alot in the past 6hrs of searching and reading.

The first is that Konis seem to be VERY good. Also, searching on this forum about Koni's takes a long time because there is so much BS.

After all that reading it seems I do not necessarily need to blow big bucks on a coilover system. According to what I've read, a good spring/strut combo would be very good for a hobbyist such as myself. I am still trying to do more research on this subject as to what that combo entails.

The entire suspension budget I had set for myself was $1k or less, less being better. So doing a coil/strut combo *should* be significantly cheaper than the coilovers. I am yet to research price differences because I haven't solidified a spring/strut combo.

Rear sway bars are definitely added onto the list, because I can surely do that myself.

As far as what class I'll be running in, I really am not too concerned. I'm in the hobby for the fun of toolin around a track with my car (I'm sure I'll care later, but for now any class will do I guess). I just got into it a year or two ago with my Protege which was completely stock.

 

[jtmcinder]

For $1k and FWD: H&R OE Sports (not Sports; OE Sports), Koni Sports, SuspTech 1" rear bar, shim out the rear upper arms about 1/4" to keep the rear camber down, and then get the alignment. You can do all the work yourself (except for the alignment).

The first $1k really ought to go for 16x8.5 wheels and R-compunds, but it's hard to blow your whole budget on things you will use for five minutes every other weekend. So I'd do the above and when you get sick of being trounced by people on Rs, save up again.

- Jtoby

 

[FyxxterZC]

Since you have a gst, you might want to look at rre's page and find the front lower stress bar that connects you're lower control arms (it's not stock if that sounds confusing and it's not rediculously expensive). Here's a link to that, http://www.roadraceengineering.com/eclsuspension.htm. And you also have aftermarket struts/springs so do the intake piping and filter (or k&n drop in if you want to go into stock class). And listen to jtoby about the wheels/tires because tires can and will take you very far. The rest I would say is try to get a good cat back exhaust along with a smaller front sway/larger rear. I've always wanted to try an RS front sway with a gsx rear (but wasn't sure if a gsx rear sway bar was thicker or would even fit). Hope that helps.

ps. Other little tidbits i've found; don't autocross with less than 3/4 of a tank of gas, and try to be smooth/linear on you're steering/rpm input.

 

[DG-FNR]

There's also a website that discusses this stuff in great detail - http://autox.dsm.org

DG

 

[MrAWD]

... Given what you have said, I'd suggest a new, thicker rear swaybar as #1. The other cheap fix is an alignment: zero rear toe and the spec maximum of front toe-out...

Well, considering this is a FWD we are talking about, I would use slightly different settings instead. Main issue with the FWD is to make your rear end to play well. Since there is no driving there you have to use your feet (meaning brake and gas). What helps in that case is toe out in the rear to aid trail braking and rotation. But, be careful there and start small so your rear end will not be too wild until you get used to it!

As of the max spec toe out in the front, I would say it would be too much and I wouldn't recommend more then half of what is recommended for the AWD cars (total to stay around 0.12 degrees). I have used a lot of toe out in the front and only benefit from that was for the tire sales person who was collecting his fee quite often! From the racing perspective, I have not seen much of a difference between the 0.25 vs. 0.12 degree of toe out in the front.


Fedja