Active Rear Toe elimination (binding)

[WombatTSi]

I know that by eliminating the active rear toe feature, by using either the Taboo kit, or just welding the arm solid and replacing the bushings with Polyurethane ones, the whole rear arm will bind up. I also know that DSS sells a very nice looking kit, complete with replacment Aluminum Spherical bushings. I also know its over $300 shipped. Is there ANY other way to get rid of the active rear toe that doesn't cause the excessive binding? Any experienced input would be helpful.

 

[FyxxterZC]

I too would like to see some other options to this. Anyone who has done the taboo setup with polyurethane inserts please tell us how bad the bind is........say on an autocross course for example. Does this type of bind cause snap oversteer or add to the understeery nature of our cars? And if anyone who has the spherical bushings has had them for over a year, please share their characteristics as well.

 

[NDgsx]

Ryan you could always fashion up a bar that bolts the two arms together and bolts down to the rear subframe in the middle. Then you wouldn't have to ditch the rubber trailing arm bushings and worry about binding with poly ones. You probably already have the rear subframe back on that thing though huh?

 

[Darksyne]

Ryan you could always fashion up a bar that bolts the two arms together and bolts down to the rear subframe in the middle.

If he was going to do that then why not save some money and effort and just install the Galant rear steering rack? The only negative would be the extra weight.

http://www.taboospeedshop.com/atil.htm

BTW.. Can you explain why the arm would "bind up" when replacing the active rear toe link with a solid bushing? I'm not seeing how it would cause any issues since the trailing arm connections at the subframe and hub are unchanged.

 

[WombatTSi]

Ryan you could always fashion up a bar that bolts the two arms together and bolts down to the rear subframe in the middle. Then you wouldn't have to ditch the rubber trailing arm bushings and worry about binding with poly ones. You probably already have the rear subframe back on that thing though huh?

I was actually looking at doing that when I was putting the rear subframe back in. I decided not to because I just don't have the tools/materials to do it right at the time. I was also concerned about it taking repeated abuse, there would be a lot of stress on those bars. especially on a hard launch, and having that let go all the sudden would be interesting to say the least.

 

[NDgsx]

BTW.. Can you explain why the arm would "bind up" when replacing the active rear toe link with a solid bushing? I'm not seeing how it would cause any issues since the trailing arm connections at the subframe and hub are unchanged.

The arm doesn't bind up, the trailing arm bushing does when you use a solid polyurathane bushing. The trailing arm doesn't pivot exactly on the axis of the mounting bolt, so the bushing is forced to deflect some under compression. Polyurathane requires more force to deflect.

 

[FyxxterZC]

What if you replaced the trailing arm bushings with polyurethane, filled the inside arm with liquid polyurethane (instead of closing it off completely with a solid piece of metal)? I'm having a little difficulty grasping what part is binding. I think I know but I'm not certain. There has got to be a way, maybe even leave the trailing arm bushing stock (the part the bolts go through, which bolts up to the subframe right? inside of the arm itself?) and filling the whole arm inside with poly?

I realize filling it with liquid polyurethane wouldn't be practical because it might not set "centered" as it's drying. What about if you made a piece of metal to hold it as the poly cures? Maybe make an insert that is shaped like the metal part in the dss spherical bushing set out of poly?

 

[NDgsx]

I was saying leave the main bushing alone or use the spherical bearing, you got the idea. I'm not sure how much of a difference locking the arm would make when the main bushing is still soft.
Pretty much your options are:
Leave it alone and let the rear toe wander
Try to lock the arm with the stock bushing, not sure how much toe change the bushing deflection will cause
Weld it and put in a poly bushing and just deal with binding (it isn't the end of the world, it just makes suspension movement a little harder)
Buck up the cash for a real solution from Mike at DSS

 

[neuralracing]

So is the consensus that there isn't any feasible Toe Elimination Kit out there? Or is the DSS one decent?

 

[WombatTSi]

DSS one is very nice, and the correct way to do it, but its a lot of $$$ ($300ish shipped)

 

[neuralracing]

DSS one is very nice, and the correct way to do it, but its a lot of $$$ ($300ish shipped)

Does everyone agree that its a good bang for your buck mod?

 

[WombatTSi]

no, its not a good bang for your buck mod. A good bang for your buck is a MBC, fuel pump and a hacked MAS to run 13's. This is a $300 bushing to eliminate the few degrees of toe-in under hard braking and acceleration...

the right way to do something, is almost NEVER the cheapest way to do something. Ive decided to just put the poly bushing in and deal with the binding. I do things the wrong way

 

[neuralracing]

My car is meant to be a track car (road racing) so running 13's is very low on my priority list... the best handling possible is #1... hence I bought the JIC setup.

 

[NDgsx]

Best bang for your buck is to attend a couple driving schools. I'm being honest, not sarcastic.

Best bang for your buck would be to do it ghetto like me and weld two big washers onto the arm. It's not the best thing for the suspension though.

 

[MackZ24]

Sorry to pull this back up from the near dead, but I thought rather than start a new thread, this one is a good start. NDgsx, or anyone else who knows, I was just wondering if you know the size of the washers that you used to weld onto the arm? Also, how bad to you experience this binding because of it? My car will be mostly street driven, but will dabble in a bit of AutoX and maybe some other Road Race/Rally type driving. I had already planned on eliminating the rear toe by fab'ing something up similar to the item for sale at Taboo Speed Shop, but was just trying to find out the dimensions of the product, or something that would work well when I thought of using washers. (And of course a search turned up showing that I was definitely not the first one to think of this method! )

Just looking for a bit of information about the general dimensions that the Active Rear Toe eliminator would be, and how bad the side-effects are.

 

[pneumo]

1 1/4"ID X 2 3/4"OD fender washers.

 

[MackZ24]

Thanks very much pneumo! And if anyone knows how bad the side-effects of this are for street driving, that would also be appreciated!

 

[neuralracing]

Best bang for your buck is to attend a couple driving schools. I'm being honest, not sarcastic.

Best bang for your buck would be to do it ghetto like me and weld two big washers onto the arm. It's not the best thing for the suspension though.

Why do you say its not a good thing for the suspension?

 

[bjones18]

I know that by eliminating the active rear toe feature...Taboo ...its over $300 shipped. Is there ANY other way to get rid of the active rear toe that doesn't cause the excessive binding? Any experienced input would be helpful.

Active Toe Sounds like some company is trying to make $$$$

Active toe would imply knowledge of vehicle yaw or slip angle (electronics). We do not have active toe control. Roll steer, yes. Throttle on/off toe..maybe. Side force compliance Steer, yes.

I have not read the objective of this thread... only solutions to an undefined issue.

If you are looking for less understeer, more turn-in, rotation, transient oversteer. There are many ways. sta-bars, tires, weight dist, F/R wheel rates, static toe, F/R camber, F/R camber gain.

Tokico 5-ways with higher rear setting will give more transient turn in. If you really want to get into suspension elasto-kinematics....roll steer (or lack there of) is a big knob. relative height difference between the inner and outer toe-link pivots is the key. It is possible to simulate this by shimming the front (or rear) subframe mounts away from the body. If you cannot figure out which should be shimmed....you should do some research and read up.

Decreasing understeer can increase the "fun to driveness," it can also set you up for some suprising unpleasant yaw when you are not expecting it (more passengers than usual, wet pavement, accident avoidance, etc).

 

[RipperXX]

Well not to hyjack the guys thread, but I do have a more objective oriented question.

on stock 90 AWD suspention well frankly sucks ass. And understeers and rolls pretty bad. I was thinking, ST sway bars, strut towers, Eibach pro kit, AGX shocks and replace the rear bumper with the alumenum one I think Dejon sells, along with the DSS rear toe elem kit.

My question here is if I did all of this, how much less likely is the car to understeer? Basicly I want damn near any understeer, If anything I want oversteer. Well actualy I do want over steer. Do you think this would be the best way to go? Or does someone here think they could get the car to handel like i'd like useing less and or diferent parts?

 

[jtmcinder]

replace the rear bumper with the alumenum one I think Dejon sells

You need to take weight off the nose, not the tail.

- Jtoby

 

[bjones18]

Stock 90 AWD suspention ..... And understeers and rolls pretty bad....thinking, ST bars, strut towers, Eibach pro kit, AGX shocks and replace the rear bumper with the alumenum one I think Dejon sells, along with the DSS rear toe elem kit. My question here is ...how much less likely is the car to understeer? ....I want oversteer. ... Or does someone here think they could get the car to handel like i'd like useing less and or diferent parts?

Hundreds of users know what to do. There is an HP book called how to make your car handle, a good start. Also, search these forums...alot of good info, it's all been done before. If you are looking for parts and "brand names" to solve your problem, they will line up to sell you their parts. You may even be able to find someone who claims their brand of washer fluid improves cornering capacity.

Knowledge is the most powerful tool to reduce understeer. I'll bet if you studied up you could reduce understeer for under $100. Understeer comes from front/rear suspensions. tires, & vehicle properties. Did you move your battery to the rear?

How will you know if you reduced understeer? at what speed/latacc? Are you consistant in your driving to decipher part changes from driver variability?

Also, the best DSM users might not answer your questions if 15-20 words are miss spelled in your thread. I know this is not the case, but they may think the tool needs sharpening.