N/T Flywheel and Clutch Combo in an AWD

[TimG]

Short story: I bought a 93 ES 2 and a half years ago. It was slow. I turboed it. That was too slow, so I dropped in turbo pistons, upgraded a lot of parts and ran 20psi on a big EVO 3 16G. I lost all traction from 1st and 2nd gear and my non-turbo clutch disk lost all it's meat and built a glaze on it. The next day my 3rd gear shreded to pieces: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145569

I bought an AWD with a blown bottom end and planned on buying an ACT 2600 clutch kit for the motor out of my FWD. This was all based on prior belief that the input shaft for the AWD tranny was different than the n/t tranny. This information was wrong. My throw out bearing, clutch slave cylinder, throwout bearing fork and disk fit amazingly onto the AWD input shaft. Also, the distance for the throwout bearing to release the clutch disk from the PP is the exact same between AWD and n/t.

The only real difference I see is that the clutch disk is 0.5cm radius larger for the AWD and the PP design where it mounts to the flywheel is different. So technically the n/t clutch assembly should fit into the AWD tranny and power it.

I want peoples reactions to this. I want to make sure I didn't miss anything before I go out and buy a $150 6-puck clutch (Good for 310lb-ft of torque). Which is tons cheaper than a $550 2600 kit. CDN fund here though.

Reactions anyone? Reasons why it may not work?

 

[Morphius]

Short story: I bought a 93 ES 2 and a half years ago. It was slow. I turboed it. That was too slow, so I dropped in turbo pistons, upgraded a lot of parts and ran 20psi on a big EVO 3 16G. I lost all traction from 1st and 2nd gear and my non-turbo clutch disk lost all it's meat and built a glaze on it. The next day my 3rd gear shreded to pieces: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145569

I bought an AWD with a blown bottom end and planned on buying an ACT 2600 clutch kit for the motor out of my FWD. This was all based on prior belief that the input shaft for the AWD tranny was different than the n/t tranny. This information was wrong. My throw out bearing, clutch slave cylinder, throwout bearing fork and disk fit amazingly onto the AWD input shaft. Also, the distance for the throwout bearing to release the clutch disk from the PP is the exact same between AWD and n/t.

The only real difference I see is that the clutch disk is 0.5cm radius larger for the AWD and the PP design where it mounts to the flywheel is different. So technically the n/t clutch assembly should fit into the AWD tranny and power it.

I want peoples reactions to this. I want to make sure I didn't miss anything before I go out and buy a $150 6-puck clutch (Good for 310lb-ft of torque). Which is tons cheaper than a $550 2600 kit. CDN fund here though.

Reactions anyone? Reasons why it may not work?

I don't see any issues with what you are doing. The NT engine (w/turbo now) bolts to the tranny. The NT clutch will obviously bolt to the engine. (If you were putting a NT clutch on a true Turbo engine, there is a dowel on the crank that would need to be ground off.) Starters are compatable. Your rear block plate (sheet metal) should be the same and the starter should be clocked in the right location.

There are only two things I can think of that might be an issue. One is the torque rating on the NT clutch. When people are running the typical mods that are 'stage 1', what is the typical torque output? You'll be pushing 300hp. Nearing 300 ft lbs? I don't know what your plans are, but it might appear that you could quickly be exceeding your clutch again. You might think about what your plans in the future are and how much more power you plan to make.

The second, is the release lever. The AWD hydraulics has a different ratio, which in turn means that some of the geometry of the release system is different Turbo (AWD/FWD) to NT. The equates to a different amount the lever is moved for the same stroke of the clutch pedal. This means there are some difference in the pressure plate, namely on fingers of the plate. The ratios are different. It makes sense, as the Turbo clutch has a larger clamp load and can only be done through ratio changes in the fingers. Will this hurt? Likely not.
I've got a GSX (retired her) running a NT clutch and tranny and my GGSX (origionally NT) that is running a Turbo AWD trans/clutch. I haven't had any issues, with the mix of turbo/NT clutches mixed with the turbo/NT hydraulics. The GGSX, due to the NT slave, actually appears to have better release than my GSX did with the same trans/clutch setup. (<< GSX TRE trans/2600 clutch robbed for GGSX) And that's without a longer slave rod.

So, conclusion. As long as the torque rating is high enough, the setup you plan to run should be fine.

 

[TimG]

I will be running a clutch kit capable of holding 310lb-ft of torque. The ACT HD PP and 6-puck disk. When you say you are running a GSX running an n/t clutch, what exactly are you saying? You obviously changed the flywheel as well as the clutch won't bolt up to a AWD flywheel. You also said you have a Galante GSX with the turbo engine with a turbo flywheel/clutch kit in.

So turbo clutch with turbo tranny and non-turbo clutch with non-turbo tranny.

I realize the turbo FWD tranny won't bolt up with the n/t flywheel.

I was looking to mate a turbo AWD tranny up to a n/t clutch/flywheel, but things are looking up.

 

[mavisky]

tim the issues you'll run into are that both the turbo flywheels are stepped as opposed to the flat nt flywheel. this requires a completely different clutch setup and is the reason why the nt pressure plates are rated so low when the discs are made of the same material. the smaller space means its harder for them to put as much clamping force down on the nt clutches. you're also going to run into issues with the starter meshing with the flywheel's ring gear. the nt flywheel is smaller in diameter than the awd, which in turn is slightly smaller than the fwd.

if you need it i have a awd 6 bolt flywheel i could send you that might need some re-surfacing work (make sure to get it stepped right). right now it's just sitting around in my apartment doing nothing. then all you'd need is a clutch from act (or whoever you choose to go with), and if you check the individual part numbers against each other you may only need the pressure plate which would help save you a little money.

 

[TimG]

I already have an AWD flywheel, thanks Kyle. I just don't want to spend so much on a 2600 clutch kit when I can do this whaat I already have. But if the n/t flywheel meshes with the starter on the AWD tranny, then I can use my ACT n/t HD PP and n/t sized 6-puck clutch along with n/t flywheel. I'll let everyone know how it turns out come this weekend.

 

[mavisky]

all i know is that my awd flywheel didn't fit the nt tranny, so i'm kinda doubting the nt flywheel will work well with the awd tranny. it's still worth trying though.

 

[Morphius]

I will be running a clutch kit capable of holding 310lb-ft of torque. The ACT HD PP and 6-puck disk. When you say you are running a GSX running an n/t clutch, what exactly are you saying? You obviously changed the flywheel as well as the clutch won't bolt up to a AWD flywheel. You also said you have a Galante GSX with the turbo engine with a turbo flywheel/clutch kit in.

So turbo clutch with turbo tranny and non-turbo clutch with non-turbo tranny.

I realize the turbo FWD tranny won't bolt up with the n/t flywheel.

I was looking to mate a turbo AWD tranny up to a n/t clutch/flywheel, but things are looking up.

The GSX is running a NT clutch/flywheel with NT FWD tranny.

The GGSX is running an AWD clutch/flywheel with a turbo AWD tranny.

In both cases, I used the hydraulics and starters that were on the cars.


Looking at the sheet metal block protector on the back of the block, my May 92 release CAPS on microfiche shows that the 1.8, 2.0NT and the 2.0Turbo AWD plates are all the same. The turbo FWD has a unique part number, as it's the oddball one. The starters are all the same.

 

[mavisky]

i wasn't aware that the plates were the same, but i did know that the starters themselves didn't differ, i was just worried about how it lined up.

 

[TimG]

I will be praying to the Lord when I check the starter plates to match or not. If they do, I think I'm gold. I can't wait to go home (I'm 100km away at school right now). :thumbdown

 

[mavisky]

(I'm 100km away at school right now). :thumbdown

you crazy canadians and your metric system. what is that like 375 feet?? :laugh:

 

[TimG]

60 miles or so. Not too far, just far when you have to walk... in the snow.... uphill... in my dads pajamas.

 

[chucky]

Hi,
This may be usefull for you guys. After my FWD tranny separeted itself from the Block and brokepart of the mount, because my mechanic inadvertently left my tranny without 1 bolt, I realized that my 1990 Talon TSI fwd had a non turbo block and tranny (but with turbo internals). Because of that, I started searching what clutch to buy for the NT tranny, and I found out that the same type of pp and clutch in a AWD would be stronger and would stand more torque than in a NT. I guess that that is because of the diferent shape and disign. So what I did was to compare a spare AWD ACT flywheel with the NT flywheel and lucky for me both had the same diameter. I did 100 messurements and everything was exactly the same, and the most important thing was that the gap from the block to both flywheels matched. With that I made myself sure that the starter would engage correctly.
Once I finished with the flywheel problem, I found a place in miami that rebuilt a burned and rusty AWD ACT 2600 pp that I bought from ebay for a couple of bucks. They charged me $75 to intall a new custom made plate, 1/4 of the retail price of a new one. For another $120 they gave my a 6 pugs clutch disk and for $30 they resurfaced the flywheel.
The shop is in miami and the name is Miami clutch and service.

Instead of spending around $400 in a new clutch and PP for a fwd tranny Non turbo that will only hold 230lb of torque (ACT heavy duty pp and the street clutch disc), I spent around 300 but now I have a bullet proof clutch.

That was my story. Hope you find it interesting.

 

[mavisky]

Hi,
This may be usefull for you guys. After my FWD tranny separeted itself from the Block and brokepart of the mount, because my mechanic inadvertently left my tranny without 1 bolt, I realized that my 1990 Talon TSI fwd had a non turbo block and tranny (but with turbo internals). Because of that, I started searching what clutch to buy for the NT tranny, and I found out that the same type of pp and clutch in a AWD would be stronger and would stand more torque than in a NT. I guess that that is because of the diferent shape and disign. So what I did was to compare a spare AWD ACT flywheel with the NT flywheel and lucky for me both had the same diameter. I did 100 messurements and everything was exactly the same, and the most important thing was that the gap from the block to both flywheels matched. With that I made myself sure that the starter would engage correctly.
Once I finished with the flywheel problem, I found a place in miami that rebuilt a burned and rusty AWD ACT 2600 pp that I bought from ebay for a couple of bucks. They charged me $75 to intall a new custom made plate, 1/4 of the retail price of a new one. For another $120 they gave my a 6 pugs clutch disk and for $30 they resurfaced the flywheel.
The shop is in miami and the name is Miami clutch and service.

Instead of spending around $400 in a new clutch and PP for a fwd tranny Non turbo that will only hold 230lb of torque (ACT heavy duty pp and the street clutch disc), I spent around 300 but now I have a bullet proof clutch.

That was my story. Hope you find it interesting.

So you're telling me that you're running an awd flywheel, awd act2600 clutch, and an nt transmission?

I find that very very hard to believe as I've personally attempted this.

I'm curious as to how you found out you had a non-turbo block and transmission?

There are alot of oddities about this and I'd appreciate a response as it would be directly contradictory to the exact circumstances I ran into all on my own years ago.

 

[TimG]

I've done it before, Kyle. The n/t transmission works fine with an AWD flywheel/clutch combo. I tested out the theory on someone elses car (I know, I'm a coward) but as far as I know, he still runs the same flywheel/clutch combo and it's definitely stronger then the transmission. You and I both know that all too well.

 

[mavisky]

I wonder if there is a difference between the size of bellhousings on different years of nt's then. Or maybe some a-hole put a 1.8 tranny on mine before I bought it or something. I tried it when I first turbo'ed the car and I promise you it didn't work.

Either way I do agree that the nt clutch isn't the issue. Hell the nt act 2600 I had was holding fine while I stripped the teeth off of 3rd gear with a puny little 14b.

 

[iwannagofast89]

not with anything that your asking but ive ran 20 psi to my car a couple times and haven't had any problem you had with the N/t trans