I got into a debate with a fellow car lover and the topic of how long it took DSMs to make progress came up. He said that it took DSMs 10 years to get into the 10's. I started to argue, but then I realized I don't actually know who was the first to break 10's and how long it took for them to get there....
Who and when was the first DSM in the 10's? 9's? 8's?
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Sean B.
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sean glazer did an 8.90 in 2001. so iam sure he was in the tens in the late 90's
it did take a while for a dsm to hit ten....not that the motor could not.,its just we did not have ppl like shep for trannys. or ACT clutches.also nobody made good tunning equipment for the cars.
Burschur's RWD Outlaw talon ran 10's in '98 and 9's in '99. They had another awd talon in the 10's later in '99 as well I think. So it took almost 10 years, unless someone did it before them.
look at it this way the new evo was running tens before many of us saw one in person. so if we had the technology back then the times would of been lower. tunning had to play catch up with our cars as everything was new when they came out
It was Sean Glazer from Extreme Motorsports, I believe back in 1997. I'm pretty sure he had gone 10.8 @ 130 range. Buschur's AWD Talon was stuck at 11.1 at the time if my memory serves me.
"back in the day" when a racecar had a 20g, VPC's cost $1000, and everyone was full weight.
Tym Switzer hit a 10.9X pass ONE weekend before Sean Glazar of Extreme hit 10.8. I have all the old dsmtimes lists printed out. Let me find them and I will post some exact numbers and the dates for you guys.......but.........
This is for an AWD DSM.....no RWD or any of that.....
Also, at the FIRST import drag race event held on the east coast at MIR in Budds Creek, Maryland and put on by VW tuner shop EIP Tuning on July 4th 1996, Buschur ran 11.0@about 125 or so with a 20G and a small NOS shot. John Shep ran around 11.8 on his full weight red talon with a 16g blowing through the small HKS 2 3/8 exhaust. Hallman, and that original Buschur crew were all there. Sean of Extreme was there running 12's if I remember correctly.
This is the event that caused me to leave VW cars and buy my talon, which I did that October.
I will dig up some info and post ASAP. Ask anyone.....if you want the history of DSM numbers, I'm the go-to guy.
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60' 1.48
ET 11.49
MPH 116.85
14b power!
Yup I remember those days I was a punk teen just in my first year of high school 99, Thats when I bought my first mitsu and learned all about these guys. !
On a side note I noticed there are lots of registered 02 guys that posted in here.
On a side note I noticed there are lots of registered 02 guys that posted in here.
Yeah i got in to sport bikes for a few years and then got back in to dsm's. I hear Phil did the same, come to find out, we both started riding sport bikes about the same time and both got back in to dsm's around the same time. Weird
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Personal Best:
12.00 on 16G
12.42 @ 113 on 14b
Yup I remember those days I was a punk teen just in my first year of high school 99, Thats when I bought my first mitsu and learned all about these guys. !
On a side note I noticed there are lots of registered 02 guys that posted in here.
I got into DSM's in 97, my last year of High school. Got my first DSM that year too due to Turbo Mag being hardcore DSM coverage that year. It took me a couple years through college to become serious about these cars and start a shop in 02.
"This specially modified TD05/6 Hybrid 20G is the quickest spooling 450 WHP turbo we (buschur) have ever run. It has run 10.70's at 130+mph with our proven combinations... all without the aid of nitrous!
This was the turbo we used to run the first-ever 10sec blast in an AWD DSM! Tym Switzer - 10.98@124.79 1991 Eagle Talon - Full weight, full interior, full exhaust, etc. August 1997"
I will dig up some info and post ASAP. Ask anyone.....if you want the history of DSM numbers, I'm the go-to guy.
Yup, Phils the man when it comes to keeping track of the numbers. It did take a little while for tuners to get on board in the states with tuning the 4G63. Here in Japan the 4G63 has been the work horse for quite some time. So there were alot more avenues for tuning. I remember when I was in the states in the early 90's with my talon and Archer Brother's racing out in Duluth were one of the few shops offering goodies for the DSM's. They had up to Stage 3 packages in 91/92 time frame. The had been roadracing them in 89/90~ so they had the data and race background for them. Believe it or not they even showed our talons racing back then on TV, I think it was called the FireHawk series?. I want to say that in 92 HKS had up to stage V for the DSM's. I remember seeing some of their test cars back then(mules) here in japan that were in the 400-500HP range. Also back then the Mitsubishi Diamond Star Motors Group newsletter use to give us alot of our info and Todd Day's BBS.
Cant wait to get back to the states to play with my Talon some more.
#55 in the above link Garry Marsh of Wrightouch Racing & Dyno Tuning was one of the 1st. I don't recall if he was the 1st DSM in the 10's but I know he was the 1st fwd in the 10's. Garry now owns Speed Injected Inc., but has been of the grid for 10+ years. Right now that same car is still in the trailer. We have plans to pull it out dust it off & slap a 76mm turbo on it, retune & hit the track in '2010.
However before that happens, there's another car that we have in the works in the form of an Evo. Should be fun. Keep your eyes out for it as we should be debuting it in December 2009.
Tym Switzer hit a 10.9X pass ONE weekend before Sean Glazar of Extreme hit 10.8.
Here is a pic of Tym's old 20G beast from back in the day that Phil is talking about. If memory serves me right I had just scanned this from an old issue of Turbo magazine. Back when the magazine use to come out every few months
Here is a pic of Tym's old 20G beast from back in the day that Phil is talking about. If memory serves me right I had just scanned this from an old issue of Turbo magazine. Back when the magazine use to come out every few months
yup, turbo magazine. I remember staring at that pic as inspiration in the begining. (I had the same white/black 91).
Look at that tiny Spearco 120 fmic core! and the greendot 225 50 16 retreads we used for drag tires back in the day. classic.
Yup, Phils the man when it comes to keeping track of the numbers. It did take a little while for tuners to get on board in the states with tuning the 4G63. Here in Japan the 4G63 has been the work horse for quite some time. So there were alot more avenues for tuning. I remember when I was in the states in the early 90's with my talon and Archer Brother's racing out in Duluth were one of the few shops offering goodies for the DSM's. They had up to Stage 3 packages in 91/92 time frame. The had been roadracing them in 89/90~ so they had the data and race background for them. Believe it or not they even showed our talons racing back then on TV, I think it was called the FireHawk series?. I want to say that in 92 HKS had up to stage V for the DSM's. I remember seeing some of their test cars back then(mules) here in japan that were in the 400-500HP range. Also back then the Mitsubishi Diamond Star Motors Group newsletter use to give us alot of our info and Todd Day's BBS.
Cant wait to get back to the states to play with my Talon some more.
Jose!!! I remember all of that, and have done extensive research on the Archer Brothers and the road racing they did. Unfortunately, I got into DSMs summer of '96 as it states above, and that's the last year they roadraced the talons.....and they did it in my backyard here in CT, Lime Rock Park once a year. I was at the track when they came to race, but I was a VW guy at the time and overlooked the talons, never got pics or hero cards......I actually had Bobby Archer's 1990 Season Championship Winning FWD Turbo Talon purchased from a guy and then some things happened to me that forced me to break the deal. The car sold several months back to another party......I'm still bent about it, but, that's life. I love the history of DSM roadracing more than the history of Drag racing. It is crazy......not many people know that the Archers' won World Challenge 7 years in a row, and only in the last season they didn't come out on top with 2nd and 4th oeverall finishes. Anyway, a story for another thread in the road race forum.
With the Galant coming out in '88 in Japan they definitely had a head start with the 4G63. It's safe to say that the US blew by them as far as making power on the 4G goes......that's with all Japanese cars for the most part with the exception of maybe the RB26 Skylines......US lays it down!
Will be nice to see you get the talon out again! We are breaking some new ground over here so come back and join the party!
#55 in the above link Garry Marsh of Wrightouch Racing & Dyno Tuning was one of the 1st. I don't recall if he was the 1st DSM in the 10's but I know he was the 1st fwd in the 10's. Garry now owns Speed Injected Inc., but has been of the grid for 10+ years. Right now that same car is still in the trailer. We have plans to pull it out dust it off & slap a 76mm turbo on it, retune & hit the track in '2010.
However before that happens, there's another car that we have in the works in the form of an Evo. Should be fun. Keep your eyes out for it as we should be debuting it in December 2009.
Blast from the past! I remember Gary's car very well and have several pics of it. A pretty laid back guy I remember, we used to talk with him when I worked for Extreme. No doubt a groundbreaker for FWD DSM's. I would love to see him take that car back out. I miss the days when the DSM's filled the staging lanes at import events. Good luck with getting the cars back out!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticTsi
Here is a pic of Tym's old 20G beast from back in the day that Phil is talking about. If memory serves me right I had just scanned this from an old issue of Turbo magazine. Back when the magazine use to come out every few months
I remember the shot! I still want a white Talon!!!! And I really liked the Weld EVO wheels......Archer used to run them on the 2G roadracers......Awesome!
Maybe I can find my box of lists this weekend. I'll probably start a new thread called "History of DSM Drag Racing in Numbers." Because I hate numbers
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60' 1.48
ET 11.49
MPH 116.85
14b power!
Last edited by Phil1320; 10-31-2009 at 06:10 AM.
Reason: Auto-merged with previous post to prevent "bumping"
I remember the shot! I still want a white Talon!!!! And I really liked the Weld EVO wheels......Archer used to run them on the 2G roadracers......Awesome!
I used to own a set of those wheels. Had them on an FD RX7 for a little while and then sold them to a DSM buddy. I saw them on Craigslist a couple weeks ago on his old DSM that is for sale. They are SUPER light weight!
I used to own a set of those wheels. Had them on an FD RX7 for a little while and then sold them to a DSM buddy. I saw them on Craigslist a couple weeks ago on his old DSM that is for sale. They are SUPER light weight!
Brad
That's awesome! I remember they were one of few really lightweight wheels for the DSM's....
____________________________
60' 1.48
ET 11.49
MPH 116.85
14b power!
Tym Switzer hit a 10.9X pass ONE weekend before Sean Glazar of Extreme hit 10.8. I have all the old dsmtimes lists printed out. Let me find them and I will post some exact numbers and the dates for you guys.......but.........
This is for an AWD DSM.....no RWD or any of that.....
Also, at the FIRST import drag race event held on the east coast at MIR in Budds Creek, Maryland and put on by VW tuner shop EIP Tuning on July 4th 1996, Buschur ran 11.0@about 125 or so with a 20G and a small NOS shot. John Shep ran around 11.8 on his full weight red talon with a 16g blowing through the small HKS 2 3/8 exhaust. Hallman, and that original Buschur crew were all there. Sean of Extreme was there running 12's if I remember correctly.
This is the event that caused me to leave VW cars and buy my talon, which I did that October.
I will dig up some info and post ASAP. Ask anyone.....if you want the history of DSM numbers, I'm the go-to guy.
And was Sean ever mad. That was a week of slammin in the shop. Serious make or break.
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Rob McKellar
90 FWD TSi / 91 GVR4
And was Sean ever mad. That was a week of slammin in the shop. Serious make or break.
I bet it was. It, in my opinion, was the start of the Extreme reign....I think his best run at that outing was a 10.82 if I remember correctly. I still haven't found my lists, packed away somewhere.
As far as the "who was first in the 10's, 9's, etc....I only consider unibody AWD or FWD. I do not consider RWD cars in these categories. But, that's me. A DSM has not gone 6's yet.......
....the quickest DSM is 7.70.
Extreme took the ball and ran with it. Set the bar really high. It was about two years later when Shep came along and passed. I think the Hyundai Scoupe was killer, but sidetracked the progress with the Talon, it helps when the car doesn't burn as well.
I break the whole thing down into four categories:
Buschur
Extreme
Shep
Now
The four brackets in the DSM history of dragracing. It's great that some current guys are now running into the 8's and maybe heading toward 7's. In the beginning Buschur set the bar high for what was out there, Extreme really blew everyone out of the water in the years following. Shep took it to no man's land......and is still hanging out there at the top with no real threats yet and it's been years. And now, with Kiggly, Showdown, etc., we've got Extreme's 8.63 being matched and passed. Barely.
The top shops set the bar high which I think provides some of the determination and dedication to going quicker for all of us. Once you don't have something to shoot for, or a goal, I guess you sit at the top until someone comes along that can challenge.
Either way, it's awesome to see DSM's still out there and getting quicker. The cars have been out of production for about a decade. Almost or just about 20 years of roaming the streets and dragstrips. It's great!
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60' 1.48
ET 11.49
MPH 116.85
14b power!
Here is a pic of Tym's old 20G beast from back in the day that Phil is talking about. If memory serves me right I had just scanned this from an old issue of Turbo magazine. Back when the magazine use to come out every few months
I belive I own these very wheels now! I got them from buschur at the shootout this year and I'm pretty sure he said they came off this car.
Some of you guys are showing some age. Don't break a hip getting out of the ol dsm. I really am enjoying the history lesson.
yeah, unfortunately, we do age......
.....I will hopefully have some more info up here soon.......glad you're enjoying all the info....
Quote:
Originally Posted by las_vegaslazer
I belive I own these very wheels now! I got them from buschur at the shootout this year and I'm pretty sure he said they came off this car.
Very cool stuff! I used to own a set of 3 piece, Japan made, Amercian Racing wheels that I got from Brent Rau after he went full race with his Eclipse and went to the TE37's. So, I know what it feels like to have wheels that used be on an icon car in the DSM world, Congrats, those are bad-ass wheels!
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60' 1.48
ET 11.49
MPH 116.85
14b power!
Last edited by Phil1320; 11-08-2009 at 03:12 PM.
Reason: Auto-merged with previous post to prevent "bumping"
As far as the "who was first in the 10's, 9's, etc....I only consider unibody AWD or FWD. I do not consider RWD cars in these categories. But, that's me. A DSM has not gone 6's yet.......
....the quickest DSM is 7.70.
This is definitely murky ground. Do we still consider a 4-link live axle rear suspension car an AWD unibody, or do we only include OEM driveline configuration cars? I would keep John in the front and consider his car a DSM for this conversation's sake. I guess these rules would also put me as 2nd place.
Fuel type swaps definitely are a big deal too. As the alcohols have come into play people are picking up a lot of power. I'd almost be inclined to group it by gas vs alcohol as well.
I guess we could subdivide this as many times as we like to make everybody a winner. At some point it is just semantics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil1320
we've got Extreme's 8.63 being matched and passed. Barely.
I wouldn't consider 8.35 barely quicker than 8.63. Their 8.63 was a hell of a long-standing record though! I'll put more space between my ET's and their old times next season. Gary Marsh's FWD record held for a very long time as well.
This is definitely murky ground. Do we still consider a 4-link live axle rear suspension car an AWD unibody, or do we only include OEM driveline configuration cars? I would keep John in the front and consider his car a DSM for this conversation's sake. I guess these rules would also put me as 2nd place.
Fuel type swaps definitely are a big deal too. As the alcohols have come into play people are picking up a lot of power. I'd almost be inclined to group it by gas vs alcohol as well.
I guess we could subdivide this as many times as we like to make everybody a winner. At some point it is just semantics.
I wouldn't consider 8.35 barely quicker than 8.63. Their 8.63 was a hell of a long-standing record though! I'll put more space between my ET's and their old times next season. Gary Marsh's FWD record held for a very long time as well.
Kevin
No doubt three tenths is pretty large when in the 8's for sure. And I didn't mean for it to sound as if it's not. I suppose the car that came to mind when I wrote that was showdowns, sorry bout that. I have been on your threads giving props every time you've gone quicker recently. The 8.87 was the record that Extreme held for quite some time.....Shep had already surpassed that when Extreme came back out and hit the 8.63 if my memory serves me correctly(which it may not) and for some reason stopped there.
I don't know everyones exact chassis set up at all, I'm not as into it as I was 10 years back, or even 5 years, but a tubular rear subframe that bolts to the factory unibody still qualifies as a DSM to me, but true a non DSM rearend is something to question.....so, true, this could get broken down into many categories for sure. I guess in the end what I mean is that I don't consider Buschur's 1G RWD talon to be the first DSM in the 9's, or any RWD tube chassis car to be the first DSM in the 8's. DSM's never had a stock RWD config, so it rules them out for me.
first DSM in:
11's = Buschur
10's = Switzer by a about a week, but he was
9's = Glazar
8's = Glazar
7's = Shep
If not for Switzer, Extreme would own three of those categories which is pretty huge........and yes, I was always pro Extreme back in those days. But, it's fact. Too bad he didn't stick with it as I believe he could be on top still, or challenging Sheps numbers anyway.
This is only my opinion as others may view it differently, including, obvously, Buschur himself.
I'm sure you will go quicker next year Kevin and I'll be happy to see it. You're definitely making big ground. You bring up very interesting points about how this should all be classified. And, I am buying into the GAS vs. Alcohol thing. I guess I've been thinking more along the lines of the physical state of the car rather than things like that, but, for sure a drastic difference in approach.
I still haven't found my lists, thought I found them this past weekend but no-go. I will post then up when I get them. I think it will be cool, sheets from when all DSMs were DSMs. Names like Derby, Lowe, Maynard, Tichy, Croft, Hallman, Shep, Krejei, Plebani, Hill, Culotta, Glazar, Holmes..........etc. to name a few....
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60' 1.48
ET 11.49
MPH 116.85
14b power!
No doubt three tenths is pretty large when in the 8's for sure. And I didn't mean for it to sound as if it's not. I suppose the car that came to mind when I wrote that was showdowns, sorry bout that. I have been on your threads giving props every time you've gone quicker recently. The 8.87 was the record that Extreme held for quite some time.....Shep had already surpassed that when Extreme came back out and hit the 8.63 if my memory serves me correctly(which it may not) and for some reason stopped there.
I don't know everyones exact chassis set up at all, I'm not as into it as I was 10 years back, or even 5 years, but a tubular rear subframe that bolts to the factory unibody still qualifies as a DSM to me, but true a non DSM rearend is something to question.....so, true, this could get broken down into many categories for sure. I guess in the end what I mean is that I don't consider Buschur's 1G RWD talon to be the first DSM in the 9's, or any RWD tube chassis car to be the first DSM in the 8's. DSM's never had a stock RWD config, so it rules them out for me.
first DSM in:
11's = Buschur
10's = Switzer by a about a week, but he was
9's = Glazar
8's = Glazar
7's = Shep
If not for Switzer, Extreme would own three of those categories which is pretty huge........and yes, I was always pro Extreme back in those days. But, it's fact. Too bad he didn't stick with it as I believe he could be on top still, or challenging Sheps numbers anyway.
This is only my opinion as others may view it differently, including, obvously, Buschur himself.
I'm sure you will go quicker next year Kevin and I'll be happy to see it. You're definitely making big ground. You bring up very interesting points about how this should all be classified. And, I am buying into the GAS vs. Alcohol thing. I guess I've been thinking more along the lines of the physical state of the car rather than things like that, but, for sure a drastic difference in approach.
I still haven't found my lists, thought I found them this past weekend but no-go. I will post then up when I get them. I think it will be cool, sheets from when all DSMs were DSMs. Names like Derby, Lowe, Maynard, Tichy, Croft, Hallman, Shep, Krejei, Plebani, Hill, Culotta, Glazar, Holmes..........etc. to name a few....
I remember when they first starting going to 4 slicks...I was like .
Sean Ivey was also up there battling when the race to 8s was going on.
I remember when they first starting going to 4 slicks...I was like .
Sean Ivey was also up there battling when the race to 8s was going on.
That was killer! It was definitely cool to be around to watch these transitions in the DSM community. Yes, Sean Ivey was definitely moving back then, you're right. There are quite a few notable guys for sure.....
____________________________
60' 1.48
ET 11.49
MPH 116.85
14b power!
The first DSM in the 6's was Brent Rau's, so it took us only 15 years to hit a 6.
How would your friends respond to that? 
I knew this ^^^was coming
. 
