knocking coming from motor, what else could it be?

[SniperMatt59]

Well i got of the highway from work and I noticed my talon was knocking. I could only hear it when i was around 2500 or above, so i searched to see what it was thinking it was probably a rod knock. I let the car cool down and still the same thing so i drained the oil and i could see what appeared to be a gold tint to the oil so i pulled the pan and there is no play in the rod's but i still took the bottom of them off to see the condition of the bearings. They are scored a little bit but nothing major, there is no scoring on the crank. Would these still make a knock sound looking like these? I have installed revised lifters in the car and it has BC 272's, JE pistons, and eagle rods and crank. Tomorrow I am going to take the main caps off and see what condition the bearings are in and possibly the valve cover. is there anything else i should look for?

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[Ozyeclipse]

Still have the balance shafts perhaps a bearing went out. was there any greyish color in you oil, maybe a few metal flakes if so I would recommend pulling it and have it washed cleaned hot tanked to get any debris out of the engine


Edit: try and jiggle your balance-shafts if you do have them , if They do the the bearing went out

 

[SniperMatt59]

Sorry i forgot to put in that I have the balance shaft eliminator kit.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

Its possible your oil pump gear knocking. Check the it out.

 

[JacksonAuto]

Nothing in the oil pump is "gold" colored so that would not explain the color of the oil.

Gold would indicate bronze material such as valve guides or possibly a bronze pushing inside of the turbo.

The bearings show signs of particulate contamination. Some dirt/grit was likely introduced during assembly or the components weren't final washed properly. The other scenario is that a main bearing could be delaminating and those small pieces then get flushed through the rod bearings.

Worn or damaged bearings would leave a more copper colored tint to the oil. The difference in color between what we call "gold" or "copper" is a subjective term. What you call "gold" we may call "copper". For this reason I'd continue the inspection process. Check the main and thrust bearings.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

I had something similar, found what i thought to be gold very small flakes in my oil drain pan, turned out it was dirt from the undercarrage. and that my transmission was the culprate of the knock. (ended up granading 3-4 slider and center diff shortly after. the BC 272s seem to have knocking noises as well. i don't like these cams myself. make any headway?

 

[SniperMatt59]

Alright ill check the main and thrust bearings tonight, do you think that a wrist pin can make a knock sound?

 

[Cdc1221]

Yep if the pin is broken or the rod or pistons holes are worn. Going this right now with my talon

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Perhaps a collapsed or weekend lifter. If you pull the valve cover see if there are any lifters that appear to sit lower than the rest.

 

[JacksonAuto]

do you think that a wrist pin can make a knock sound?

Sure could. Doesn't explain the gold oil contaminant though. Unless the rods were bushed. One of the photos looks to be a stock rod, hard to tell for sure.

 

[Calan]

The bearings show signs of particulate contamination. Some dirt/grit was likely introduced during assembly or the components weren't final washed properly.

This ^.

Or, the motor came from a certain "un-named" shop that might have clearanced the crank with 80 grit sandpaper.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

This ^.

Or, the motor came from a certain "un-named" shop that might have clearanced the crank with 80 grit sandpaper.

Hahaha funny

 

[JacksonAuto]

 

[BogusSVO]

Has the short block been rebuilt recently? If yes, How many miles on it?

Has this build suffred rod knock before? Did you just install bearings?

 

[SniperMatt59]

Has the short block been rebuilt recently? If yes, How many miles on it?

Has this build suffred rod knock before? Did you just install bearings?

I think that the block has been rebuilt recently, i bought the car for 500 bucks because the previous owner said a coolant hose broke and it warped the head and i needed a new one due to it already being milled. He said that the bottom end had about 500 miles on it before the coolant line broke. I bought a new head and put it together with new parts. He said they installed pistons which i see is true, eagle crank, k1 rods is what the markings look like on them not that i look closely, main bearings, rod bearings, arp studs and bolts, new oil pump, and balance shaft eliminator. here's the catch though, i when i bought the car it had been sitting for a year without the head on it, but covered in plastic and grease. so i would imagine some kind of condensation could of gotten into it or dirt.

Update: well i took the caps off of the thrust cap and main caps and still just some scoring. not sure if it is enough to make it knock though, after seeing that they were not destroyed i decided to look into the top end, The valve springs look good, and lifters look like they are fine with the cams still in but should i take the cam caps off to make sure the lifters are all at the same height? I also looked at the timing to see if it jumped a tooth or two and its still timed. Thus far im pretty stumped. Im starting to wonder if it is a wrist pin now, is there a way to test for this?

Also should i bleed the lifters again? They have at least 5g miles on them since i put them in.

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timing marks are lined up on the crank on the timing belt cover also.

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[donniekak]

That's a stock crank, and rods.

 

[SniperMatt59]

That's a stock crank, and rods.

Alrighty

 

[JacksonAuto]

The condition of the main bearings shows the early stages of oil starvation. Several causes come to mind.

Improper clearance.
Cold starts, not letting the engine warm up.
Out-of-round journal.
Misalignment of the mains (align bore out of spec)
Engine was not primed or pre-lubed properly before startup.

I think that the damage you're seeing is the culmination of several different problems all at once. The JE pistons are full-float which means in order to have used the stock rods they would need to be bushed. Improper clearance could cause the noise you descibed. Also, the bronze bushing material would account for the gold-colored oil. I see signs in all of the bearings of particulate contamination which I mentioned in my post above. Also, I question the condition of the used crank that was installed. Many times used cranks are worn and the journals are out-of-round. This would account for the irregular wear on the main bearings. Another cause would be the align bore. If the main bearing housings are either out of spec, out of round or not in alignment with one another the main bearings will also show this kind of wear. Those are just the most likely scenarios based on the limited amount of information I can gather from the photos.

No matter the cause, your course of action is going to be the same. I would have the engine completely disassembled, cleaned and evaluated by a different shop. Have them go over it with a fine-toothed comb. Check all of the clearances, mag the crank, check it for straight and also mic the journals thoroughly to verify that they're perfectly round (also not tapered or barrel shaped).

 

[lnewton1974]

This wont help you out but we may be able to help each other out. I am going through the same thing in my 2g eclipse and I have taken my car to 3 different garages and no answer on what it could be. I also get up to 2500 rpm's and it starts to knock no matter what gear its in or if I am just sitting in my driveway with it in nuetraul. I am still trying to it is. I as told to check the main bearings but have not had the time to do it yet so thats about all the advice I could give to you right now. If you find out what it could be would you let me know and if i find anything out i will let you know.

 

[Tyeler18]

How's your oil pressure? When I rebuilt my first engine, the machine shop pressed out my rear BS elimination bearing. Upon start-up I made it about 5 miles before it started knocking, oil pressure had dropped severly. When I pulled the rods/mains out none of them had spun, just had some good scouring on them and were worn from oil starvation. They may not have spun, but they may have demolished themselves enough to clunk around like mine did. You sure you have both BS bearings in?

What bearings are they, can you tell? My ACL tri-metal's took a huge beating when they lost oil pressure, but they saved the crank and rods from any damage. I'd definitely recommend them to anyone.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

Oil pump gear? Hehe

 

[SniperMatt59]

How's your oil pressure? When I rebuilt my first engine, the machine shop pressed out my rear BS elimination bearing. Upon start-up I made it about 5 miles before it started knocking, oil pressure had dropped severly. When I pulled the rods/mains out none of them had spun, just had some good scouring on them and were worn from oil starvation. They may not have spun, but they may have demolished themselves enough to clunk around like mine did. You sure you have both BS bearings in?

What bearings are they, can you tell? My ACL tri-metal's took a huge beating when they lost oil pressure, but they saved the crank and rods from any damage. I'd definitely recommend them to anyone.

Im not sure, i never looked their since the balance shaft was removed when the guy built the bottom end and put the eliminator kit on. What should i look for? My oil pressure has been about the same since i gotten the car 2 years ago, i dont have an aftermarket gauge installed but the instrument panel says its slightly above low when idle and it goes all the way up sometimes to the other mark when driving.

Oil pump gear? Hehe

Ill have the motor out and tore down tomorrow ill take a look at it. Its a new oil pump so hopefully its not defective. What should i look for when i take it off?

 

[JacksonAuto]

There's no damage that is concurrent with an oil pump failure.

The rods are the last thing to get oil. Early signs of an oil pump failure are damaged rod bearings. The photos posted above do not indicate lack of oil pressure.

None of the bearings pictured above show damage significant enough to cause any kind of noise. Nor do they account for the gold tint to the oil.

Proper diagnosis is critical. A theory or guess will not guarantee that the same problem wont arise after the rebuild. My next step would be to remove the pistons from the rods and measure the pin bore clearances. Check the pin bushings for irregular wear, galling or damage.

 

[donniekak]

There's no damage that is concurrent with an oil pump failure.

The rods are the last thing to get oil. Early signs of an oil pump failure are damaged rod bearings. The photos posted above do not indicate lack of oil pressure.

None of the bearings pictured above show damage significant enough to cause any kind of noise. Nor do they account for the gold tint to the oil.

Proper diagnosis is critical. A theory or guess will not guarantee that the same problem wont arise after the rebuild. My next step would be to remove the pistons from the rods and measure the pin bore clearances. Check the pin bushings for irregular wear, galling or damage.

I'm willing to bet the rods aren't bushed, and have the pins pressed into them, with the pistons floating. Just like a stock setup.

 

[SniperMatt59]

There's no damage that is concurrent with an oil pump failure.

The rods are the last thing to get oil. Early signs of an oil pump failure are damaged rod bearings. The photos posted above do not indicate lack of oil pressure.

None of the bearings pictured above show damage significant enough to cause any kind of noise. Nor do they account for the gold tint to the oil.

Proper diagnosis is critical. A theory or guess will not guarantee that the same problem wont arise after the rebuild. My next step would be to remove the pistons from the rods and measure the pin bore clearances. Check the pin bushings for irregular wear, galling or damage.

Alright will do, I've sent the block and crank to the machine shop to have the block honed check the bore on the mains and cleaned, and the crank mag polished and checked

I'm willing to bet the rods aren't bushed, and have the pins pressed into them, with the pistons floating. Just like a stock setup.

How can I tell if the rods are brushed of not?