O ring block problem, need help

[codeofdastreets]

My friend has copper o rings in his 6 bolt crowler/ross combo bottem end. Problem is we are not familiar with O rings.. There was a mitsu mls hg there previously, should we use the same kind of head gasket?? Should we get a felt pro prematora gasket?? I had a idea of decking and milling the block to get rid of the O rings.. What would be the best solution, thanks

[BogusSVO]

What boost level is he pushing?

The copper rings need to be inspected and replaced if needed.

There is a member running 30 psi with an O ring block and felpro composite block

[codeofdastreets]

3052 turbo, car is going to be on pump 24 psi

[BogusSVO]

If you mill the block to get rid of the O rings, the pistons will be out the top of the block.

The 4G63 is about .005-.007 piston to deck clearance, the O ring grooves are probly about .015-.020 deep.

With the combo boosting 24psi, you should be judt fine with a Felpro composite perma-torque head gasket.

Why did the head get pulled? Over heated? broken Time belt?

[codeofdastreets]

Head got pulled because car raN into a fuel pump problem nd ruined the old valves, head is repaired. Can there be a problem on if the head gasket ring meets the o ring causing it to not seal correctly??

[TSIfreek]

If the O rings look ok and are not smashed I would go ahead and put a new mitsu mls on it with L19s or magnus studs. I would also use copper spray on both sides of the gasket just make sure the block and head surfaces are spotless clean with no oil etc. Use the same kind of head gasket would be best as thats what it was machined to use with..

Originally Posted by codeofdastreets

Head got pulled because car raN into a fuel pump problem nd ruined the old valves, head is repaired. Can there be a problem on if the head gasket ring meets the o ring causing it to not seal correctly??

Not if you use the same brand and type of gasket..

[Imback]

I don't see a problem with using a Felpro composite.

[donniekak]

Replace the copper with stainless steel, and run a composite gasket. Copper rings are useless, they just smash flat when the head is torqued on anyway.

[SlowChild3]

Originally Posted by donniekak

Replace the copper with stainless steel, and run a composite gasket. Copper rings are useless, they just smash flat when the head is torqued on anyway.

Isn't this what you want? Like a crush washer. Stainless would score the head right? Idk... just asking for knowledge.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[JacksonAuto]

Originally Posted by donniekak

Replace the copper with stainless steel, and run a composite gasket. Copper rings are useless, they just smash flat when the head is torqued on anyway.

+1

Originally Posted by SlowChild3

Isn't this what you want? Like a crush washer. Stainless would score the head right? Idk... just asking for knowledge.

No. The way to do it is use a stainless wire and machine a matching receiver groove in the head. The gasket should be copper and when the head is torqued, the o-ring pushes the copper gasket up into the receiver groove. That's where the seal comes from.

o-rings with MLS leaks. Been there, done that.

Originally Posted by bogussvo

If you mill the block to get rid of the O rings, the pistons will be out the top of the block.

The 4G63 is about .005-.007 piston to deck clearance, the O ring grooves are probly about .015-.020 deep.

The way around that is to fill the groove with copper wire, then mill the block just a thousandth or two. This will fill the grooves and give you a good, smooth sealing surface.

[TSIfreek]

Originally Posted by JacksonAuto

+1



No. The way to do it is use a stainless wire and machine a matching receiver groove in the head. The gasket should be copper and when the head is torqued, the o-ring pushes the copper gasket up into the receiver groove. That's where the seal comes from.

o-rings with MLS leaks. Been there, done that.



The way around that is to fill the groove with copper wire, then mill the block just a thousandth or two. This will fill the grooves and give you a good, smooth sealing surface.

Jackson from what you posted above you need to have a reciever groove when using a stainless oring correct?

[JacksonAuto]

Yes.

[TSIfreek]

Cool so for the original poster what is his best bet if he does not machine the head for the receiver groove? Will a composite gasket be his best option then if he leaves the copper wire in the head as it sits?

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

I'll second that. If you don't mill the head with receiver grooves, chances are that it will leak. I learned the hard way... I filled the grooves in the block with copper wire and milled the block. Switched from the Mitsu MLS to FelPro MLS and L19 studs and everything is hunky dory. Running FP3052 @ 30psi on E85...

[codeofdastreets]

Originally Posted by RvlutionMtrsprt

I'll second that. If you don't mill the head with receiver grooves, chances are that it will leak. I learned the hard way... I filled the grooves in the block with copper wire and milled the block. Switched from the Mitsu MLS to FelPro MLS and L19 studs and everything is hunky dory. Running FP3052 @ 30psi on E85...

So this basically fills in the grove then milling it makes it flat?? Basically back to stock correct??

Originally Posted by TSIfreek

Cool so for the original poster what is his best bet if he does not machine the head for the receiver groove? Will a composite gasket be his best option then if he leaves the copper wire in the head as it sits?

Composite is what im leading to right now, any other thought on it?? Max boost will be 30 psi which I was told done by a few members on here with no problems..

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

Yes, basically back to stock as long as you still have enough valve clearance. If you deck it too far you can run out of clearance. Without the groove in the head I had noting but problems with the o-rings in the block. I didn't want to do stroker prep on a new block so I took my chances with this one. So far, so good. Either way you go, an OEM or FelPro composite gasket should do you just fine for the power level you'll be at.

[Yamahaulin]

U can run the stainless wire without a receiver groove in the head if the wire in the block mates perfectly to a composite gasket. Most composite gaskets have a metal ring around the bore, if the wire matches diameter of the gasket you will be fine.

After reading again I need to clarify I know this works when wire is in the head instead of block.

[JacksonAuto]

Originally Posted by TSIfreek

Cool so for the original poster what is his best bet if he does not machine the head for the receiver groove? Will a composite gasket be his best option then if he leaves the copper wire in the head as it sits?

With no receiver groove in the head, he needs to use copper wire and mill the deck flat. With the right combination of parts and a good tune, these engines run fine up to 35-40 psi without o-rings. The key is flat surfaces, a good gasket, properly torqued fasteners and NO detonation. So to answer the OP, fill the groove with copper wire, mill the deck flat and use a composite or FelPro.


O-rings in the block, no reveiver groove and anything but a copper head gasket is wrong and asking for trouble. The rings stop the head from seating fully on the block. O-ring wire is typically .045-.060" thick meaning you've got the head sitting .022-.030" higher than it needs to be. This increases the quench volume (which increases the propensity for preignition) and does not compress the gasket fully which will lead to premature failure. Also, since the head is sitting up on the rings and not on the deck, it's going to be more likely to lift under cylinder pressure because it's unsupported. The cylinders MAY seal but you're going to blow the gasket between water ports so what's the point?

[codeofdastreets]

Originally Posted by JacksonAuto

With no receiver groove in the head, he needs to use copper wire and mill the deck flat. With the right combination of parts and a good tune, these engines run fine up to 35-40 psi without o-rings. The key is flat surfaces, a good gasket, properly torqued fasteners and NO detonation. So to answer the OP, fill the groove with copper wire, mill the deck flat and use a composite or FelPro.


O-rings in the block, no reveiver groove and anything but a copper head gasket is wrong and asking for trouble. The rings stop the head from seating fully on the block. O-ring wire is typically .045-.060" thick meaning you've got the head sitting .022-.030" higher than it needs to be. This increases the quench volume (which increases the propensity for preignition) and does not compress the gasket fully which will lead to premature failure. Also, since the head is sitting up on the rings and not on the deck, it's going to be more likely to lift under cylinder pressure because it's unsupported. The cylinders MAY seal but you're going to blow the gasket between water ports so what's the point?

So basically copper orings are pointless.. So best bet is to redue the copper on o ring nd then deck nd mill the block so its flush. He defenity is not going to like the fact the motor has to come out smh

[JacksonAuto]

Yep. I don't know where the copper idea came from but it's useless. It doesn't cost anything and it's not much more work to do it right.

[TSIfreek]

Great info here finally a thread worth reading..

[flexnuts02]

To make things even clearer. You dont NEED receiver grooves. I have ran my built block for 2 years and its seen 31psi on the street with simply just steel ring wire o rings and a stock OEM composite gasket. Never EVER did I lose coolant in the 7,000 miles it was sealed this way.

I also do not use any sealant spray on head/block decks. My dad and I have our own auto shop and we use the red sealer on almost every gasket except for the head. Its not need, in facvt when I have a nice machined deck ill take a die grinder to it to rough it up, throw a composite gasket on it and never look back.
Ive had 6+ dsm headgasket jobs and none of them ever have been an issue with my methods. The only time you dont want to rough the surface is if you run metal gaskets.

I also use this die grinding method on BRAND NEW clutch presure plates as well as the flywheel to help break the disk in, *shiny metal is not the best unless the mating material is also shiny* as a rule of thumb, composite things such as brake pads, clutch pads and composite headgasket are made to "bond", so my theory is that if your decks are ultra smooth with a composite gasket, youll push coolant through it eventually since the deck will tend to "refuse" the gasket. When I pull my 4g63 heads they always have a nice uniform lead layer left on the block due to the roughness that I add.

And now I sall add my current equation I face.

I disassembled my block that was not built by me to freshen it up.

I found the pistons to be OVER the block deck even though it made great power and reliability.

Ihave steel orings and they need to be machined out which is a HUGE disadvantage to putting o rings in the block deck!

So my used head gasket measures .054 and the leftover o ring wire measures out to .040

So to be on the safe side assume .030 machining plus .054 gasket = .084 gasket needed to imitate previous compression, after the deck milling is done. Any info on here on people running THICK gaskets to bandaid compression??

[honduraneclipse]

jackson machine i also heard from someone, that o-ringing the head if ever need be to separate the block and head again , basically the cylinder head would be junk afterwards because the surface was disturbed far enough that it cant be resurfaced or o-ringed again because too much material would have to be cut , rendering the cylinderhead useless. Or is machining a receiver for the block o-ring a whole different story?

[keltalon]

I would like to chime in. I been running an oring block for the past 3 years . My set up was well calculated by myself with much success. my set up is a steel oring sticking .005 above the deck , with a hks stopper head gasket 30+psi no leak/or pushing coolant

[JacksonAuto]

Originally Posted by keltalon

I would like to chime in. I been running an oring block for the past 3 years . My set up was well calculated by myself with much success. my set up is a steel oring sticking .005 above the deck , with a hks stopper head gasket 30+psi no leak/or pushing coolant

.005? Not enough protrusion to make a difference either way. Your block would stay sealed up without the O-rings. It's working for you because you have no need for o-rings. Good sealing surfaces and a good gasket will seal 40+ psi. Get up into that territory where o-rings are necessary and that piddly .005" wont do shit.

[JacksonAuto]

Originally Posted by honduraneclipse

jackson machine i also heard from someone, that o-ringing the head if ever need be to separate the block and head again , basically the cylinder head would be junk afterwards because the surface was disturbed far enough that it cant be resurfaced or o-ringed again because too much material would have to be cut , rendering the cylinderhead useless. Or is machining a receiver for the block o-ring a whole different story?

Same story as the block. If you have grooves cut in the head and no longer want to use o-rings then fill the grooves with copper wire and mill it flat. But you are correct in that you cannot mill the grooves out. That would take too much material off of the deck.

[keltalon]

Originally Posted by JacksonAuto

.005? Not enough protrusion to make a difference either way. Your block would stay sealed up without the O-rings. It's working for you because you have no need for o-rings. Good sealing surfaces and a good gasket will seal 40+ psi. Get up into that territory where o-rings are necessary and that piddly .005" wont do shit.

Man you are cursing becuase you don't want to hear the truth maybe you are feeling the effects of the economy and can't pay your bills. Frankly I don't give a rats rear end what you think I know what is working for me . I used to respect jackson and have even purchased from you guys but no more you are showing that you are just as ignorant as most who don't have a clue. I post results long and short. I can post pics of a head gasket that came off this set up and the impressions of the o-ring is definitely maiking its impact more than enough if you ask me. I went a whole year trying to find out a solution to my high boost pushing coolant problem and I , without wearing my keyboard out typing, found the solution and its what I mention above and I am happy to report what worked for me and if someone want to copy they can without having to spend hundreds of street hours trying to reinvent the wheel. Trust me the .005 oring on my 500+ horsepower engine did the trick. All of this performance stuff is trial and error anyway and now that I have passed this aspect of the test and I share my success with those who want to give it a shot and I move forward!

[codeofdastreets]

who makes a copper head gasket??

[tron2119]

You can get one here-http://www.ffwdconnection.com/headgaskets.shtml

[jrohner]

Originally Posted by keltalon

Man you are cursing becuase you don't want to hear the truth maybe you are feeling the effects of the economy and can't pay your bills. Frankly I don't give a rats rear end what you think I know what is working for me . I used to respect jackson and have even purchased from you guys but no more you are showing that you are just as ignorant as most who don't have a clue. I post results long and short. I can post pics of a head gasket that came off this set up and the impressions of the o-ring is definitely maiking its impact more than enough if you ask me. I went a whole year trying to find out a solution to my high boost pushing coolant problem and I , without wearing my keyboard out typing, found the solution and its what I mention above and I am happy to report what worked for me and if someone want to copy they can without having to spend hundreds of street hours trying to reinvent the wheel. Trust me the .005 oring on my 500+ horsepower engine did the trick. All of this performance stuff is trial and error anyway and now that I have passed this aspect of the test and I share my success with those who want to give it a shot and I move forward!

You could do 500hp on a felpro composite and decent surfaces, so I fail to understand why you're slamming him just because your setup is working for you.