ARP head stud torque with layered headgasket

[EagleTalonTim]

Finally bought me some ARP head studs and a layered headgasket from STM. From what I have read in my research, I can lube the bolts, hand tighten the head studs in the block, install the headgasket, put the head on, then torque the nuts from 0 to 90ft lbs in 4 steps. Since I am using an other than factory head gasket, does the torque stay the same or am I even correct on how I should install the head stud kit?

[1990AWD]

Originally Posted by EagleTalonTim

Finally bought me some ARP head studs and a layered headgasket from STM. From what I have read in my research, I can lube the bolts, hand tighten the head studs in the block, install the headgasket, put the head on, then torque the nuts from 0 to 90ft lbs in 4 steps. Since I am using an other than factory head gasket, does the torque stay the same or am I even correct on how I should install the head stud kit?

your method is correct and torque to what your head studs are supposed to be.

[agedog2gT]

The owners maual has all specs. If you have it. Sorry I don't remember off the top of my head.

[1990AWD]

Originally Posted by agedog2gT

The owners maual has all specs. If you have it. Sorry I don't remember off the top of my head.

owners manual will not have the correct torque for his head studs. it would show for factory head bolts which is a lesser torque.

[motozachl]

What else do you use the lube for besides just the studs? Do you lube anything else like the washers/nuts?

[livedsm4g63]

Originally Posted by motozachl

What else do you use the lube for besides just the studs? Do you lube anything else like the washers/nuts?

Its recommended to do the washers and nuts as well.

[vannaksgsx]

I'm running ARP studs and a OEM MLS HG. All of the above responses are correct, and don't forget to follow the torque sequence below:



-Vannak

[motozachl]

Originally Posted by livedsm4g63

Its recommended to do the washers and nuts as well.

What exactly like the threads or surfaces of the washers and where do you obtain the 'special tool' like the giant star socket for the arp nut

[vannaksgsx]

You can get the 12 point socket at autozone, advanced auto parts, or home depot, lowes, etc.

Put some lube on the tip of your finger (where some gloves), and lube the threads, both sides of the washers, and the bottom/inside of the nut. You might have to pre-install some washers in the head before setting it on the block. Once the head is set in place, and the stud comes up through the hole, you lose clearance.

Before putting any lube on the top side of the studs, nuts and washers- make sure the head fits snug and is aligned. If ok, proceed with the installation...

-Vannak

[livedsm4g63]

Originally Posted by vannaksgsx

You can get the 12 point socket at autozone, advanced auto parts, or home depot, lowes, etc.

Put some lube on the tip of your finger (where some gloves), and lube the threads, both sides of the washers, and the bottom/inside of the nut. You might have to pre-install some washers in the head before setting it on the block. Once the head is set in place, and the stud comes up through the hole, you lose clearance.

Before putting any lube on the top side of the studs, nuts and washers- make sure the head fits snug and is aligned. If ok, proceed with the installation...

-Vannak

That is correct. As far as the sequence goes. Make sure to follow it, because it may not seal right. When I did my head gasket and studs, I didn't know the sequence so I was living on a prayer. The head still sealed, however if a sequence is recommended, follow it to a T.

[motozachl]

Thanks vannaksgsk and livedsm4g63 exactly the info that I needed Couldn't find it in the manual

[vannaksgsx]

And make sure when you hear the torque wrench click, you let that damn thing go...lol

[EagleTalonTim]

Got it installed and torqued to 90ft lbs in the proper sequence and in 5 steps. Sure enough....after a short test drive (30 min), I have about 1 quart of coolant in my oil. I was really afraid of that since I was not able to mill my head or block before install. There is not a single shop within 100 miles of where I live who can mill the head or block. I am not even sure if anyone could mill the block with it still in the car. I took about 2 hours cleaning the block and head and lightly wet sanding the surfaces to remove any left over headgasket. I also used transmission fluid on a rag to help clean the surfaces then cleaned it with brake cleaner. After washing everything out, I used a razor blade to clean any left over dirt, dust, or lint. So, I guess it is back to a stock head gasket after I recover from the money lost on the MLS.

[JacksonAuto]

You could ship the head out and have it milled. Cheaper and easier than driving 100 miles. In order to mill the block it would have to be removed and completely disassembled.

[GSXeclipsePSI]

Before you give up, try copper spray. I would clean the surfaces like you did prior to the MLG install. Put a few layers of copper spray on, make sure it stays tackier so it glues itself to your head. I would do 4 or 5 coats since you got leaks. When you take it off you should see where your leak was.

And you could try 100ft lbs just in case as I did this after 3 heating and cooling cycles.

[vannaksgsx]

Before the install, did you prep you head and block surfaces AT ALL?? How rough were the surfaces?

[EagleTalonTim]

Should I get the block milled? I have never majorly overheated this engine so I figured it should still be ok. The engine is a JDM 6bolt so no telling how it was treated over there I MUST have this car running before winter hits since it is my only mode of transportation with 4 wheels and a heater. I have a long 1 hour drive to work every day and driving my motorcycle is not the way to go.

Now the biggest question is... Can I re-torque the head studs to 100ft lbs and hope it seals it up so I don't have to go though the whole pulling the head again?

Originally Posted by vannaksgsx

Before the install, did you prep you head and block surfaces AT ALL?? How rough were the surfaces?

Yes. Not rough at all. Listed in my first post how I cleaned the surfaces.

[TSIfreek]

IMO If you cannot have the block and head (head most important) surfaced pefectly flat with the correct RA for an MLS I would not even bother trying to use one or a high posibility of failure like has happend will arise.
I would pull the head off and just use an OEM composite head gasket or the composite HG from ajusa that jackson automachine sells. Both are fine for 400- 450 HP with studs at 90 ft lbs.
Flush the engine out good with cheap oil to get all the coolant out of it as it will wipe you bearings right out. Its good you found it so quickly not to cause any damage.

I would not go past 90 FT lbs on the studs as that is close to there yeld point. You go over the yeild point and you stretch the stud and its junk.

[1990AWD]

Originally Posted by EagleTalonTim

Should I get the block milled? I have never majorly overheated this engine so I figured it should still be ok. The engine is a JDM 6bolt so no telling how it was treated over there I MUST have this car running before winter hits since it is my only mode of transportation with 4 wheels and a heater. I have a long 1 hour drive to work every day and driving my motorcycle is not the way to go.

Now the biggest question is... Can I re-torque the head studs to 100ft lbs and hope it seals it up so I don't have to go though the whole pulling the head again?



Yes. Not rough at all. Listed in my first post how I cleaned the surfaces.

The head definitely needs to be checked for warpage. Get a proper machined straight edge and a feeler gauge and check in several directions and places on the head.

It's almost definitely warped. My head was almost new, only a few thousand miles, never overheated (still had the washer and glue on it), and it was still warped 3-4 thousandths of an inch.

It's simply the fact that with an aluminum head and cast iron block, the head will almost always warp. My uncle rebuilt engines for a living and they got to the point of sending every aluminum head off to be machined because it happened so much.

Oh, and don't worry about the block. With the aluminum head, the head will always warp first.

[1992awdlaser]

I have always torqued the arp's to 100 ft/lbs. I would not try the mls gasket again unless you get both the head and block machined flat. I am running a Mitsubishi composite gasket and have not had any issues with it up to 30psi. I know there are a lot more people that have pushed them further than that without a problem too.

[motozachl]

Your not suppose to use copper spray on a mls head gasket. Also ARPs are torqued to 90lbs - even says on the directions that they come with lol.

Oh and just a side note: do the oil port mod on the head if your going to resurface the head

[JacksonAuto]

Copper spray wont make up for an improper surface finish or a warped head.

You've got several things working against you. The stock surface finish is too rough for an MLS to seal. Plus you aren't certain that both mating surfaces are true. Until you fix these things, swapping head gaskets is all a waste of time and money. It's cheaper to do it right once than it is to do it wrong three times.

[JacksonAuto]

Now the biggest question is... Can I re-torque the head studs to 100ft lbs and hope it seals it up so I don't have to go though the whole pulling the head again?

Over torquing studs doesn't help anything. All it does is stretch the fastener past it's yield strength which actually LESSENS it's clamping force. This is poor advice.

[JacksonAuto]

Originally Posted by 1990AWD

Oh, and don't worry about the block. With the aluminum head, the head will always warp first.

More poor advice. Seen plenty of warped 4G63 blocks. A distorted block is a result of excess HEAT. The block doesn't care what kind of head is bolted to it!

[sbiggi]

Originally Posted by JacksonAuto

More poor advice. Seen plenty of warped 4G63 blocks. A distorted block is a result of excess HEAT. The block doesn't care what kind of head is bolted to it!

Plus the head gasket rubbing it over time due to the heat cycles of the engine.

[KeelesKustome]

good info i'll need this soon.