Cyclone intake/motor

[LaVigne-Aj]

I've heard alot of mixed messages, but still don't know exactly what to do. I just installed a full JDM cyclone motor in my 90' Talon Tsi. Alot of people have told me just to dump the cyclone intake, and just put the stock intake on. I really want to get the cyclone intake working. On initial hook up the car would run smooth at minimal throttle and under 6 lbs of boost. As soon as the turbo spooled over 6 lbs the car sputters spitts and hesitates. What exactly do I have to do to get this manifold working right. Thanks in advance for any helpfull hints.

 

[SOURCE1064]

That mainfold it only useful for lowend torque and midrange power but it sucks where you need it at top end. I sold mine and extrudehoned my 2G one. Here is some info from RRE:

There is no "Cyclone Motor" The long blocks from Japan are the same year for year as the US motors. They will usually have the Cyclone intake manifolds on them. This is just a dual runner (similar to Toyota's TVIS system) intake manifold that gave a little better bottom end power IF you have all the electronics to properly actuate the butterfly valves. Also there are clearance issues between the Cyclone manifold and the larger US A/C compressor. Yes you can use it, but not really worth the hassle. Some manifolds will say "Cyclone" on them but not have the dual runner butterfly system. The timing belt upper covers sometimes can be slightly damaged from shipping, also the igniter or coil pack may be damaged. This usually happens in the shipping container on the boat ride from Japan.

 

[LaVigne-Aj]

I don't really have to wory about the clearance problems due to the fact that everything is ### spec, including the a/c compressor, which I don't really plan on hooking up anyways (I believe there is a leak in condensor). Being that the intake manifold is already installed, I would like to give it a try, and see how it performs. I'm almost possitive on the butterfly valves being there. I also have one extra electrical connector coming from underneath the coil pack that doesn't match up (guessing that thats the butterfly control). Now all I need to know is how to get it to work right. Thanks for the initial advice though Charlie. Any more info would be helpfull on wiring and vacuum solutions.

 

[Tevenor]

The problem is that the valves are held closed by vaccum. As soon as you remove that vaccum, it opens the valves. So if you hook it up to a boost source off the intake plenum, then you are not taking advantage of the low torque benefits as boost rises. You would need to be able to supply vaccum while under boost till a certain boost level was achieved to make it tunable.

 

[LaVigne-Aj]

I'm starting to get a little confused. Are the buttefly valves electronically controlled, or vacuum controlled. Initialy I thought there needed to be a vacuum/boost sensor to electronically controll the valve at a certain pressure (i.e. at 6 lbs of boost, electrical current is provided to the butterfly valves). If the valves are controlled by vacuum, I assume the little blue and white canister on the back of the manifold is what would hold and deliver vacuum while starting to achieve boost levels. If you guys have anymore advice, I'd love to hear it.
-Aj-

 

[Tevenor]

Ok you have some basic misconceptions.

The Butterfly valves operate by vaccum, not electrically. The only thing electrical is the original boost solenoid that the JDM cars came with. The ECU controls that solenoid to close off when boost is registered, and pulse to equalize the pressure in the vaccum canister, causing a slow flip to open (to minimize violent flow differences). The canister 'holds' the vaccum to keep the vaccum signal to the diaphragm intact, and hence 'closed'. Unfortunately our ECU's don't have that capability and hence you can't use that system.

 

[LaVigne-Aj]

Well, now that things are starting to clear up, how the hell do I get this set up right. Thank you very much for the advice. I at least have a starting ground now. Unfortunately, I won't be able to try it out for a week or so. The first day I took the car out with the new motor I blew the turbo. The nut on the end of the impeller shaft backed off and went through the turbo, a HUGE disappointment. If you know of any successful hook-ups I would love to know of them.

 

[ho chi inn]

Originally posted by SOURCE1064
That mainfold it only useful for lowend torque and midrange power but it sucks where you need it at top end. I sold mine and extrudehoned my 2G one. Here is some info from RRE:

There is no "Cyclone Motor" The long blocks from Japan are the same year for year as the US motors. They will usually have the Cyclone intake manifolds on them. This is just a dual runner (similar to Toyota's TVIS system) intake manifold that gave a little better bottom end power IF you have all the electronics to properly actuate the butterfly valves. Also there are clearance issues between the Cyclone manifold and the larger US A/C compressor. Yes you can use it, but not really worth the hassle. Some manifolds will say "Cyclone" on them but not have the dual runner butterfly system. The timing belt upper covers sometimes can be slightly damaged from shipping, also the igniter or coil pack may be damaged. This usually happens in the shipping container on the boat ride from Japan.

and what did you pay for your extrude honed intake? the flow charts i saw comparing the cyclone, stock intake, and extrude honed showed a 4 cfm increase over stock. yippee. that's what, 100 bucks per cfm? the chart also shows the stock intake outflows the cyclone by 2 cfm. yipee. and yep, the cyclone DRASTICALLY increases low end and midrange, sucks at wot? well, since i rarely get my car even past 6k rpm, i cant tell the difference. i have, however, logged a consistent 4 mpg increase, and 6+ mpg increase at steady 75 mph with cruise control on. turbo spools sooner, and the car pulls a LOT better from 1500 rpm. tre ported big 16g, 2g mas, evo6 injectors, 2.5 exh turbo back, dejon intake/bov, rre pipes/jdm fmic, water injection., yada, yada. the cyclone is NOT for improved high end, but you knew that, right?
since the 2g head has smaller ports, and is more of a low end power design, putting the cyclone on it seems useless.
if you drive always in max boost, the cyclone is NOT for you. but, if you drive like me, stop and go traffic, shopping, long trips, occasional autocross, where most of the time you are not in boost, or just in low boost, the cyclone will make a big difference. i have it operating perfectly, using a discarded fuel purge solenoid, a boost control solenoid, and a hobbs pressure switch.

 

[LaVigne-Aj]

I would definately like to try this cyclone intake out. If you could let me know exactly how you have the intake hooked up I would really appreciate it. Which vacuum line where and where you have solenoids and pressure switch hooked into. Thank you very much though, things are starting to come together.

 

[ho chi inn]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29208

hope this works. there is a near identical thread farther down this list.

 

[SOURCE1064]

Originally posted by ho chi inn

and what did you pay for your extrude honed intake? the flow charts i saw comparing the cyclone, stock intake, and extrude honed showed a 4 cfm increase over stock. yippee. that's what, 100 bucks per cfm? the chart also shows the stock intake outflows the cyclone by 2 cfm. yipee. and yep, the cyclone DRASTICALLY increases low end and midrange, sucks at wot? well, since i rarely get my car even past 6k rpm, i cant tell the difference. i have, however, logged a consistent 4 mpg increase, and 6+ mpg increase at steady 75 mph with cruise control on.

I paid $365 for better than stock flowing manifold and not to have my top end performance diminished. Obviously there must be a reason that everyone isn't jumping to cyclone manifolds and they are selling as cheap as they are. As I said I got one and I sold it. There is a reason behind that. My shop tested it on another Eclipse and they felt that the low and mid range power that you do pick up doesn’t make up for how much it hurts you up top. I don't know anyone out on the tracks using a cyclone running excellent times. Most people don't upgrade their intakes for better gas mileage and lower top end performance. If you want better low end torque and low end power changing you pistons to a higher compression would be much better.

Originally posted by ho chi inn

turbo spools sooner, and the car pulls a LOT better from 1500 rpm.since the 2g head has smaller ports, and is more of a low end power design, putting the cyclone on it seems useless. if you drive always in max boost, the cyclone is NOT for you. but, if you drive like me, stop and go traffic, shopping, long trips, occasional autocross, where most of the time you are not in boost, or just in low boost, the cyclone will make a big difference. i have it operating perfectly, using a discarded fuel purge solenoid, a boost control solenoid, and a hobbs pressure switch.

I think I stated that when I said the following: "That manifold is only useful for low end torque and midrange power but it sucks where you need it at top end." Again most people aren't moding their cars for better gas mileage and a peppier ride to the mall. For the people wanting a street/track setup the cyclone isn't the best thing out their on the market. Extrude honed or an aftermarket manifold such as a Magnus manifold is a much better choice. Having a 4cyl you don't want to give up top end performance for more torque low down. As I said there are other ways at getting that low end torque without sacrificing top end.


I think the money and parts needed to get the cyclone to work they way it is ment to isn't worth it IMHO. Here is a write up on the comparison and more info can be found here: http://home.pipeline.com/~blackhole/faq/cyclone/gvr4cyclone.html

So why go to the trouble? What are the disadvantages & advantages of going to the JDM Cyclone manifold vs. the stock US manifold? Here are answers to some common questions and misconceptions.

Q: What is the little white cylinder that came with my intake? What do I do with it?

A: Supposedly it is a vacuum reservoir for use in conjunction with an ECU controlled solenoid to control the butterfly opening. The US ECUs do not appear to have this functionality so you can just plumb the butterfly straight to the manifold. Also see http://www.dsm.org/archives/1999/01/19990122.txt/47.html
If you really want to be creative, you can always use a boost controller on the actuator's vacuum line to control when the secondary runners open.

Q: What all parts are needed to make this swap?

A: Cyclone manifold, coil pack & power transistor brackets, manifold support bracket (opt).

Q: Will the Cyclone clear the stock A/C compressor?

A: Barely. With a little careful bending of the A/C lines and/or grinding of the manifold support bracket it will be a tight fit but will work.

Q: Will the stock spark plug wires fit now that the coil has been relocated?

A: No. But the US 1G DSM NGK replacement wires will just fit if the 1-4 coils and 2-3 coils are switched in the bracket. Some people have reported better fitment by swapping the #3 & 4 plug wires. That was not my experience, all of my wires fit only when keeping them on the correct plug when using the stock wire routing. It is an extremely tight fit that I was uncomfortable with, so I ordered a set of Cyclone-specific wires from Magnecor [part# ?????]. Expensive? Yes. But they are a direct fit and have plenty of slack. YMMV.

Cyclone Advantages

• Spools turbo faster - ~400rpm earlier according to N. Pharr
• Wider powerband - smaller runners keep velocity high at low rpm, improving torque.
• ~5" Hg greater vacuum at cruise - should improve fuel economy slightly
• Too cool and unique!

Disadvantages

• Heavy and complex. I haven't weighed it, but it must be at least 5 lbs more than the US manifold, and held together with over a dozen bolts.
• Very slight flow limitation - see the flow numbers.
• Hard to find new gaskets or replacement parts. :-(

Manifold Flow Data

Manifold flow at 28" H2O, 0.400" [10.2mm] lift, manifold bolted to stock head:

Manifold Flow (cfm)
Cyclone 201
US stock 203
US EH* 210

*Extrude Honed. Flow bench data is courtesy of S. Evans and vacuum / spool data is courtesy of N. Pharr.

A 1.0% difference in flow between the Cyclone and US intakes is hardly significant unless you are making a race motor. Even Extrude Honing the US intake only nets 4.4% more airflow than the stock Cyclone. The stock head is obviously a limitation. Extrude Honing hardly seems worth the cost unless bolted to a ported head.

 

[tsi_turboawd]

looks like its NOT really worth the time swapping the Cyclone intake mani to the US mani. In that case of a 2% cfm differential .... ILL STAY WITH THE CYCLONE AND GET IT WORKING!

 

[DrZiplok]

You can't make it work properly without the corresponding ECU, vaccum cannister, wiring and plumbing.

You can make the butterflies open and close, but without the electronics you won't realise the intended benefits.

 

[ho chi inn]

Originally posted by DrZiplok
You can't make it work properly without the corresponding ECU, vaccum cannister, wiring and plumbing.

You can make the butterflies open and close, but without the electronics you won't realise the intended benefits.

how do you know? have you compared the actual jdm operation with non? have you even ever INSTALLED the cyclone? i get great performance out of mine. better low end and midrange, and much better fuel economy. on 2 different motors.

 

[SOURCE1064]

Originally posted by ho chi inn


how do you know? have you compared the actual jdm operation with non? have you even ever INSTALLED the cyclone? i get great performance out of mine. better low end and midrange, and much better fuel economy. on 2 different motors.

I'll say it again man. My shop tried it and found that it was more of a restriction than useful and the data I posted above shows it too. Maybe you're about it by most people aren't moding their cars for better gas mileage and smaller low end and mid range power gains, they want optimal power out of their car and flow out of their intake manifold. I again am changing my manifold from my extrude honed one to a Magnus sheet metal one for better overall power gains.

Go to this site and you'll see a dyno chart from Forrest racing comparing a sheet metal intake and a stock one. If the red were a cyclone it would be a bit higher up until around 85-90 then you'd see the chart hurting in top power.

http://www.forresterracingheads.com/products.html

 

[ho chi inn]

you need to go back and read the first post. it isnt about which flows better, it is about how to get it to work. however, your car being a 2g, which has smaller ports/intake, and cant flow like the 1g, of course needs more help up top. heck, mitsu had to give it way more boost just to keep the hp figures about the same as the 1g. so, the flow charts show the cyclone to flow 2cfm less than a 1g intake, how about against a 2g intake? maybe the reason your shop didnt like it was because the cyclone intake was too large for the tiny 2g ports? i dont see any cyclones on jdm 2g cars. i do see a lot of 2g cars changing over to the 1g head and intake. and they AINT doing it for less flow.

 

[RabidDonkeyBoy]

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this took me 20 minutes to come up with, anyone care to tell me why it wouldn't work?

 

[SOURCE1064]

Okay to make it useful the cyclone intake has to have all of the electronics and solenoids. It's similar to the TVIS system used on the MR2 Turbos, and those guys even tend to completely gut out the system so it does not hurt their top end flow.

ho chi inn The swap that was one with a cyclone intake at my shop was done on a 1G since my car hasn't been on the road in over a year! It was a gst, they took before and after dyno runs. The hp came on just slightly quicker spool up in the lower rpms, but final numbers were lower in the end. Btw my head is ported out to the and flows even better than a 1G head.

 

[zac83]

Originally posted by RabidDonkeyBoy

this took me 20 minutes to come up with, anyone care to tell me why it wouldn't work?

I read about 3 posts up above and started to draw that exact same drawing that will work just fine. the vac can is the best part and is crucial if you dont let it go to vaccume after you boost it (it would be adequte for track but not for autocross if you left the can off)

 

[ho chi inn]

Originally posted by zac83


I read about 3 posts up above and started to draw that exact same drawing that will work just fine. the vac can is the best part and is crucial if you dont let it go to vaccume after you boost it (it would be adequte for track but not for autocross if you left the can off)

that is similar to what i have, except no check valves, no mbc, and a lot less tubing. also, i believe if you check your 3 barb solenoid, it dont work like you want it to. normally, only ONE of the outlets is open, and one is all you really need. i like to keep things as simple as possible.

 

[Batty200]

I have a WG actuator mouted on the mani attached to the lever that switches the butterflies open and closed and have it opening at 10psi which is SO SIMPLE and effective. It took me like 2 hours to come up with it. Why use all the complex wires and solenoids? A simple actuator that open under boost works fine.

Later

 

[ho chi inn]

Originally posted by Batty200
I have a WG actuator mouted on the mani attached to the lever that switches the butterflies open and closed and have it opening at 10psi which is SO SIMPLE and effective. It took me like 2 hours to come up with it. Why use all the complex wires and solenoids? A simple actuator that open under boost works fine.

Later

the boost actuator is a great idea. however, i have found i like it a bit more if the butterflies open at a lower boost level. so far, i havent seen any negative comments about the cyclone from anyone who has gotten it to work properly.

 

[zac83]

i think i'll just get a pressure switch set for 4 PSI or so and put a stepper motor of some sort on the butterfly valve.

 

[ho chi inn]

Originally posted by zac83
i think i'll just get a pressure switch set for 4 PSI or so and put a stepper motor of some sort on the butterfly valve.

wont work. you need the vacuum cannister to maintain vacuum on the actuator, and to dampen the pulses from the wide range of vacuum during normal operation. without it, the butterflies act like real butterly wings, they will flap open and shut all the time.

 

[tsi_turboawd]

My mechanic says all I would need to get the cyclone butterflies open at a certain boost is a PRESSURE SOLENOID. does that sound correct?

.. he really wants to get the cyclone to work. =)