4g63 head on a 4g64

[project1g]

How many of you have actually done it or at least seen it done??
Right now I just wanna know what all i would need,
I really don't want the turbo on just yet so I guess I'll stick with the nt 2.0 dohc head,
Would i still need to swap ECUs??? All I want right now is the torque from the 2.4 but room to p ut a turbo on later with the head, or would it be better to put the turbo head on and run the turbo???
Main questions I need answered are
- how much does it cost
- how long does it take
- how good are the outcomes??
Thanks

 

[91tizzy]

Here is my advise....save your money by drivin the gas saver that you have. Then when you have enough to build it the way you want to you will know what it takes and things will happen way easier

 

[Car_guy_09]

Here is my advise....save your money by drivin the gas saver that you have. Then when you have enough to build it the way you want to you will know what it takes and things will happen way easier

Good advice

 

[project1g]

Here is my advise....save your money by drivin the gas saver that you have. Then when you have enough to build it the way you want to you will know what it takes and things will happen way easier

Just because I wanna know how much it costs doesn't mean that its gonna be a problem.
And I do have another car thats good on gas...
I just wanna start crackin' this thing into shape so I can run the scene in this town.

 

[Freerevving]

you've got to plug some holes on the block... I've never done it, but if you run a search please show us what you've found

 

[project1g]

Yeah I looked up on 4g64.150m.com but it didn't go much further into it.
Other than showing me the holes I have to plug

 

[g_ferg]

How many of you have actually done it or at least seen it done??
Right now I just wanna know what all i would need,
I really don't want the turbo on just yet so I guess I'll stick with the nt 2.0 dohc head,
Would i still need to swap ECUs??? All I want right now is the torque from the 2.4 but room to p ut a turbo on later with the head, or would it be better to put the turbo head on and run the turbo???
Main questions I need answered are
- how much does it cost
- how long does it take
- how good are the outcomes??
Thanks

Figure out how much you want to spend and what you goals are for the build also. The 2nd gen head will fit right on the 4g64 block. Also the 1st gen head will also fit. And if you go with the 7 bolt 2.4 you will need to plug a few holes in it. Wich i assume you will considering that is whats in your car already. And have some extra money saved up for the unplanned things that go wrong. The time it takes is going to depend on how familiar you are with working on the car. The outcomes i couldn't really tell you as Ive only got 28 miles on my 2.4 swap with my car And i really don't feel like breaking the thing yet . But if you plan to turbo it you will also need to look into purchasing some different pistons as the compression with the stock 2.4 pistons will be to high. I would highly recommend doing some research before you just jump into this. There are A lot of threads you can find about swapping the head's. And enough to tell you everything you would want to know about the swap.

 

[project1g]

I've heard turboing the 2.4 block would be pretty easey if you kept it at 10 lbs...
I'm also doing everything one at a time because I like to see my work show for itself.
Like with my 1g Every little thing I put on there, I broke it in and seen just how much better that one mod made my car...
But its done raining.. Time to go lay a few more bricks.

 

[g_ferg]

I've heard turboing the 2.4 block would be pretty easey if you kept it at 10 lbs...
I'm also doing everything one at a time because I like to see my work show for itself.
Like with my 1g Every little thing I put on there, I broke it in and seen just how much better that one mod made my car...
But its done raining.. Time to go lay a few more bricks.

Yes that you could do that. But 10lbs blah...you will want more But it is all up to you.

 

[delta448]

How many of you have actually done it or at least seen it done??
Right now I just wanna know what all i would need,
I really don't want the turbo on just yet so I guess I'll stick with the nt 2.0 dohc head,

The N/T 1G 4G63 head has different cams, but is otherwise the same animal as the turbo head. There's no need to get the N/T DOHC head over the turbo one.

Would i still need to swap ECUs??? All I want right now is the torque from the 2.4 but room to p ut a turbo on later with the head, or would it be better to put the turbo head on and run the turbo???
Main questions I need answered are
- how much does it cost
- how long does it take
- how good are the outcomes??
Thanks

The ECU you use will be determined by which head you use and the sensors, but without opening the block up and installing lower compression pistons you can't run a DOHC head. The 64 stock pistons with 63 head create a very high CR, in the neighborhood of 12.0:1 and the ignition timing will be way off even if you use your stock N/T ECU.

Yeah I looked up on 4g64.150m.com but it didn't go much further into it.
Other than showing me the holes I have to plug

The holes must be drilled oversize part way down and then threaded so that a plug can be screwed in and sit in the hole slightly below the deck. This should be done by a professional machinist right before he surfaces the block for you.

I've heard turboing the 2.4 block would be pretty easey if you kept it at 10 lbs...

If you use the stock SOHC head, some DSMers have been able to mount a turbo manifold (same stud/port pattern) and just run very low boost with a fuel control piggyback, datalogger and some fuel system upgrades. You won't make as much power though.

I'm also doing everything one at a time because I like to see my work show for itself.
Like with my 1g Every little thing I put on there, I broke it in and seen just how much better that one mod made my car...
But its done raining.. Time to go lay a few more bricks.

You can't really do that and still turbocharge this car. You'll have to have ALL the necessary parts at the same time.

 

[BoostedTalonTS]

The ECU you use will be determined by which head you use and the sensors, but without opening the block up and installing lower compression pistons you can't run a DOHC head. The 64 stock pistons with 63 head create a very high CR, in the neighborhood of 12.0:1 and the ignition timing will be way off even if you use your stock N/T ECU.

For clarification, you CAN'T use the stock 4G64 pistons with any 4G63 DOHC head as they are machined with different valve reliefs for the SOHC and your DOHC valves will hit pistons!!

As far as my 4G64 project went, I used a 6-bolt 4G64 in my 1G and so far (knock on wood) no issues in ~5k miles. In my case, the 6-bolt 4G64 block did not require any 'plugging of holes' and my 1g DOHC head bolted right on.
As far as cams & timing go, I used a OEM 4G64 timing belt & timing gears from a 95 2.4L DOHC Galant. -All existing sensors bolted up fine, and I still use a DSMLink-equipped 1G EPROM ECU to manage it all.

Pictured here are the OEM SOHC 4G64 pistons & a set of DOHC Arias pistons.

 

[delta448]

For clarification, you CAN'T use the stock 4G64 pistons with any 4G63 DOHC head as they are machined with different valve reliefs for the SOHC and your DOHC valves will hit pistons!!

Unless you use an extra thick headgasket or cut new valve reliefs. But some very good info I was not aware of nonetheless. Thanks Eben.

As far as my 4G64 project went, I used a 6-bolt 4G64 in my 1G and so far (knock on wood) no issues in ~5k miles. In my case, the 6-bolt 4G64 block did not require any 'plugging of holes' and my 1g DOHC head bolted right on.

The 6 bolt doesn't have the extra holes, but the 99+ 7-bolt 4G64 is a better solution for him since he already has one and the 2G motor mounts will line up. Also, crankwalk on all the 99+ blocks was virtually eliminated with the use of the new split thrust bearing design like the Evos use.

As far as cams & timing go, I used a OEM 4G64 timing belt & timing gears from a 95 2.4L DOHC Galant. -All existing sensors bolted up fine, and I still use a DSMLink-equipped 1G EPROM ECU to manage it all.

Pictured here are the OEM SOHC 4G64 pistons & a set of DOHC Arias pistons.

Obviously an Eprom and DSMLink will cure any problems of having the wrong base map, regardless. But if you decide to use a piggyback, you need the right ECU to start from.

Good post Eben.

 

[BoostedTalonTS]

Unless you use an extra thick headgasket or cut new valve reliefs. But some very good info I was not aware of nonetheless. Thanks Eben.The 6 bolt doesn't have the extra holes, but the 99+ 7-bolt 4G64 is a better solution for him since he already has one and the 2G motor mounts will line up. Also, crankwalk on all the 99+ blocks was virtually eliminated with the use of the new split thrust bearing design like the Evos use.Obviously an Eprom and DSMLink will cure any problems of having the wrong base map, regardless. But if you decide to use a piggyback, you need the right ECU to start from.

Good post Eben.

I'm no 2G expert, but IIRC, doesn't the 2G tranny have 3 tranny mounts and only 1 (driver's side) motor mount? Technically, the OP could still go either way. -You might want to have some 2G NT Wisemen/Moderators chime in here. I admit, I have no experience with the 420a motors and was somewhat misled by his "1G" screen name

True: 7-bolt SOHC 4G64s are more readily available... The 6-bolt 2.4L blocks are much rarer to find these days.

As for the DSMLink, I wouldn't even begin to consider using an AFC (for example) type piggy-back. -In my experience, you will have to retard timing by quite a bit... Even more then the stock 2G Turbo timing maps... If you are coming from a 2g NT Neon motor then that's an entirely different animal all together.

 

[g_ferg]

I'm no 2G expert, but IIRC, doesn't the 2G tranny have 3 tranny mounts and only 1 (driver's side) motor mount? Technically, the OP could still go either way. -You might want to have some 2G NT Wisemen/Moderators chime in here. I admit, I have no experience with the 420a motors and was somewhat misled by his "1G" screen name

True: 7-bolt SOHC 4G64s are more readily available... The 6-bolt 2.4L blocks are much rarer to find these days.

As for the DSMLink, I wouldn't even begin to consider using an AFC (for example) type piggy-back. -In my experience, you will have to retard timing by quite a bit... Even more then the stock 2G Turbo timing maps... If you are coming from a 2g NT Neon motor then that's an entirely different animal all together.

Has nothing to do with the 420a Talking about the 4G64 here.

 

[m_0ney_pit]

Steps:
- Do the Turbo ecu/injector swap first. get a 95 eprom ecu or a 98-99 mutII ecu(black case). Its a bigger project than you think!

-Decide if you want to turbo your SOHC or do the DOHC swap.

I chose to go turbo first.

 

[delta448]

I'm no 2G expert, but IIRC, doesn't the 2G tranny have 3 tranny mounts and only 1 (driver's side) motor mount? Technically, the OP could still go either way. -You might want to have some 2G NT Wisemen/Moderators chime in here. I admit, I have no experience with the 420a motors and was somewhat misled by his "1G" screen name

True: 7-bolt SOHC 4G64s are more readily available... The 6-bolt 2.4L blocks are much rarer to find these days.

As for the DSMLink, I wouldn't even begin to consider using an AFC (for example) type piggy-back. -In my experience, you will have to retard timing by quite a bit... Even more then the stock 2G Turbo timing maps... If you are coming from a 2g NT Neon motor then that's an entirely different animal all together.

He has a 99 N/T Spyder. They have a stock 7 bolt 2.4L 4G64 block with a SOHC head, not a 420a and were the only true DSM car with a 2.4L from the factory. He also happens to be lucky enough to have a 99 model year, which should also employ the split thrust bearing design I mentioned earlier. His block won't really need to be changed. Just inspected, machined where necessary and rebuilt.

 

[BoostedTalonTS]

He has a 99 N/T Spyder. They have a stock 7 bolt 2.4L 4G64 block with a SOHC head, not a 420a and were the only true DSM car with a 2.4L from the factory. He also happens to be lucky enough to have a 99 model year, which should also employ the split thrust bearing design I mentioned earlier. His block won't really need to be changed. Just inspected, machined where necessary and rebuilt.

I digress... Apparently I also missed the 'Spyder' part of this thread as well and just by looking at the OP sig pic, I thought it was a normal NT 2G. -That's what I get for posting in the AM when I'm still

Everything I mentioned earlier pertains to OEM SOHC 6-bolt 4G64's though. I would think that any other SOHC 4G64 block would also have different pistons (valve releifs) as they have two valves per cylinder vs that of a DOHC head.

 

[TurboAnything]

The 2g 2.4 SOHC is a 16 valve head it has the valve reliefs. and also there were 2.4 5-speed galants with a DOHC head i have been in one it was a 95-96 i believe.

 

[dsm-onster]

. . . Just to clarify. Not bustin' balls or anything. But all 4g64 heads have the same cc size at the chamber as turbo 2.0 heads. 47cc. This means that a 63 head with 64 pistons will have the same CR as a 64 head with 64 pistons. 9-9.5:1 . . .


9.5:1 isn't too bad to boost for the back yard tuner. But the ringlands are located like an n/t 4g63. So the pistons are weak. The slightest detonation at fun horsepower levels will mean a cracked ringland or worse.

 

[delta448]

Good info Matt.
I suppose I shouldn't ASSume everything I've heard to be true and start relying only on the info I attain myself. I'm not sure I remember where I saw it but I remember reading somewhere, probably that other forum I never post on, that the 64 SOHC head had a 68-69cc combustion chamber. Thinking back on it and trying to recall accurately, the SOHC head I pulled sure didn't look like that large. -I'm now going to assume that you are correct since I have no way of measuring that head which I've since sold, and also since I consider you to be a much more reliable source.

My apologies to everyone for the misinformation.

 

[dsm-onster]

It's not you. For some reason this info is EVERYWHERE. You could have gotten the information from the big stroker tech thread. Guys with a 64 head in their garage and swapped to a 63 head even say the same thing. But everyone I've measured came out to about the same cc as my 2 63 heads.

 

[SlowSpyder]

. . . Just to clarify. Not bustin' balls or anything. But all 4g64 heads have the same cc size at the chamber as turbo 2.0 heads. 47cc. This means that a 63 head with 64 pistons will have the same CR as a 64 head with 64 pistons. 9-9.5:1 . . .


9.5:1 isn't too bad to boost for the back yard tuner. But the ringlands are located like an n/t 4g63. So the pistons are weak. The slightest detonation at fun horsepower levels will mean a cracked ringland or worse.

pics to back up matts statement....

 

[m_0ney_pit]

wow how many psi did that happen at? what was the setup as far as fuel managment? did he have a knock sensor?

 

[project1g]

Steps:
- Do the Turbo ecu/injector swap first. get a 95 eprom ecu or a 98-99 mutII ecu(black case). Its a bigger project than you think!

-Decide if you want to turbo your SOHC or do the DOHC swap.

I chose to go turbo first.

I wanna keep the 2.4 block, DOHC swap for a head, and turbo it...

Sorry I havn't been on much, I've been busy getting a new clutch for the car..
went with a centerforce Should have pictures up soon... But yeah the headswap will probably have to wait until February or so.. But when I do it, what would be some strong pistons and rods to go with??
And I forgot who mentioned it but I plan on putting a thick head gasket on and then another stock one to lower the compression just that much more...
Sorry my name is confusing, but I had a 1g that detonated itself...

One last thing
Where would you guys recommend buying a ECU/Datalogger from thats reasonably priced

 

[m_0ney_pit]

either get a safcII/neo and evoscan (~$300)

or

dsmlink and a laptop. I'd get this. (~$750..eprom and software/cable)

stay away from a MAFT and pocketlogger, they are more hassle then they are worth.