Cryogenic Part Treatments [Merged 6-8] cryo treatment

[96'GSspyder]

what are the benefits of having the block treated in a cryo chem bath

 

[autronicDSM]

www.ffwdconnection.com for a nice explanation

 

[jltcat]

It make it harder. You can also make the block a lot stronger by removing all of the casting ridges/burs by doing this you relieve any areas that stress can focus on as well as removing spots that can create temp. differences.

 

[GRNDSM]

First of all, cryo treatment is only effective when you know exactly what metals you are dealing with. Very few (if any) cryo places know the exact composition of Mitsu parts. So in most cases, it is a waste of money and sometimes you can actually end-up with weaker parts!

Second, our blocks are strong enough in stock form...

Leon
RR

 

[DSM_AWD_TSi]

I have a 92 Talon TSi AWD. I just blew the head gasket couple days ago, I'm planning on changing the piston rings since the car was burning oil anyways. Now I've read that the stock rods can handle around 400hp, should I still cryo treat the rods and pistons? I found a place that can do them for $8 a rod and $6 a piston, so it would only cost me $56+shipping. Does freezing the parts actually make them stronger? Is it worth it? Thanks.

Btw, I searched and only found two threads about cryo treatment.

 

[Defiant]

I'll say no on a street-driven DSM. Rods aren't a weak point unless a bearing spins, and at that point having them cryo'd wouldn't help. This stuff came about in NASCAR where they're trying to find "improvements" on stock or to-spec parts, and don't have the opportunity to gain other advantages.

Odd I hardly hear of shot-peining on this board- that use to be the hot trick.

I don't think there'd be any advantage to having the pistons cyro-treated.

 

[Tallen]

You'll be fine with a nice set of Eagle/Crower/Scat/etc rods.

Aren't most rods shot peined from the factory?

 

[suicidal2af]

I'll say no on a street-driven DSM. Rods aren't a weak point unless a bearing spins, and at that point having them cryo'd wouldn't help. This stuff came about in NASCAR where they're trying to find "improvements" on stock or to-spec parts, and don't have the opportunity to gain other advantages.

Odd I hardly hear of shot-peining on this board- that use to be the hot trick.

I don't think there'd be any advantage to having the pistons cyro-treated.

From what I understand, shot-peaning doesn't actually do anything for the strength of the rod, it just gives the surface more consistancy to help prevent stress cracks. Still probably a good idea, though.

 

[DSM_AWD_TSi]

I have read that shot peening only increase the rod strength by 10%, so it doesn't really do anything. Thanks for the replies, I'll save the $56+shipping on something else.

 

[just_passed_you]

Tis the season to build a motor! (6 bolt)
The block has been cleared by the machine shop
so I'm ready to move forward with the rotating assembly.

I have a set of 1G rods, the crank, etc.
Just add pistons/bearings.

My choices are
a.) forged pistons.
b.) cryo entire rotating assembly using stock parts.
c.) cryo rods, ceramic coating of stock pistons.

I'm a firm believer in "you get what you pay for"
just so that you know I'm not trying to beat the system.

I'm interested in longevity and a few passes at the track.
My intention is get my turbo's full potential out
this summer without destroying my motor.
Per Bullseye, the T04B V-Trim supports around 450hp
and I retain most if not all of the supporting mods. (in profile)
(gunning for the infamous 11 sec pass)

I'm no metallurgist or physics major so
aside from what you would do personally,
here are a few true or false questions
I'd like your opinion(s) on:

1. ) Vendor: "Components can run at hotter temperatures without any adverse effects."

2.) Vendor: "Enables you to use less expensive stock parts to acquire the same benefits and performance equal to if not better than components costing twice as much"

3.) Enthusiast: "Cryo treating doesn't make it stronger, it causes it to wear better because it helps smooth out the surface bringing more atoms to the surface. Basically cryo treating gives you more surface area, it will not make the part stronger because it doesn't affect the temper of the material."

And finally, what is the end-all-be-all of machine work
to be done with the short block?
My list of choices:

deck
bore
hone
plateau hone
line hone
balance
blue-print

Are any of these redundant? Am I missing a process?
I appreciate any feedback you'd like to submit!

Thanks guys!

 

[snox135]

I would go with the forged pistons. Cryo treating does work great and you can gain some hp from it (not a lot with a 4 stroke). With your hp goals I would rather put the money into forged pistons.

 

[TSIfreek]

Cryoing does work for sure. But I would not use it on a street car just way over kill. An all out 9 second 700hp 40 psi track only car yea it would be worth it. Sheps motor for example.
As far as your choises of parts I would go straight to forged pistons and forged rods with out cryoing anything. You can spend the money else were.
I have over 12k miles on my built motor and pulls just as strong as if it had 2k on it and its been threw alot.
As far as your machine work goes your on the right track and is all I did to my block as well but I wish I had the block oringed for those 27 psi pulls in the future. Just extra insureance. Also machine the rods to accept a floting pin and just have all the rod cleances and weights checked since there mass produced.
I would not mess around with stock crap while you have it apart forged parts are so much superior.
Again cyroing parts does work but way to expensive unless you have 20k to waist save for a built trany if you havent got one yet.

 

[just_passed_you]

...unless you have 20k to waist save for a built trany if you havent got one yet.

Per Vendor:
"For crank, rods, and pistons, it will run $200 plus return shipping.
We do this as a standard with each of our motor builds."

That's not bad at all.
Why does everyone seem to think this process is uber expensive?

So who thinks it's worth $200 to have your rotating assembly
cryogenicly treated?

 

[snox135]

Plus you have all the shiping and handling cost, troubles and waiting for you parts to get done. It's worth it, but if your on a budget trying to decide to treat used stock parts or buy new forged I'd rather buy forged.

 

[just_passed_you]

Here's another statement:

Enthusiast: "Cryo treating in short will make parts stronger as long as it is performed as part of the initial heat treat cycle."

 

[TSIfreek]

You wont need it and wont do anything for you. What do you think you will gain from this? Money is money no matter what it gets spent on. Also I dont want my freshly machined rotating assembly being throw around in the mail.
You will bend a croyed 1g rod before any forged rod out there.
Also our cranks are forged many guys have gone into the 9s without cryoing anything and using the stock crank with forged rods/pistons. If you want it to last as long as possible get a wide band and dsm link to tune it to the crorret A/F so your not running rich and run red line oil.
You can spend 100k$ on dsm parts. Cryoing is the last thing on my mind.

 

[Defiant]

Cryo treating does work great and you can gain some hp from it (not a lot with a 4 stroke).

WTF You'll get more hp gain from some nice Oakley stickers on the sideskirts.


If it worked, cryo would only allow more stress before breaking than a non-treated part.

I am of the belief that cryo treatment in an engine is just another money leak.

Yes, there are some conditions where it might help, such as a 20K-RPM F1 motor. Where it might help.

 

[Siral3x]

"deck (a MUST)
bore ( if needed)
hone ( A MUST)
plateau hone ( doesn't matter for 450hp u will be ok)
line hone ( same thing..you will be ok for 450hp area..u pick)
balance ( recomended...I would for sure)
blue-print " ( it costs a lot....but it's a good thing..I would skip it and invest in rods)

-For 450HP...I would recondition those stock rods...stock 1G rods have been proven good for 400-500hp;
-get a set of wiseco's pistons;
-DON"T use a stock Head Gasket...Mitsu MLS ..etc are very good!
-use as many MITSU OEM parts when you put the block togheter:water pump, timing belt..etc..

CRYO treating is a waste of money for your goal! ALUMINUM RODS ARE a good idea to Cryo since the density and atoms are variating in the alu. alloys.

A basic "BLUE-Print" process involves messuring and making sure everything is within spec, and you can do it yourself when you put the block back togheter. Check everything 5times just for the heck of it! It is fun when you double chk what the machinist did to your setup..maybe he lied who knows

 

[snox135]

WTF You'll get more hp gain from some nice Oakley stickers on the sideskirts.


If it worked, cryo would only allow more stress before breaking than a non-treated part.

I am of the belief that cryo treatment in an engine is just another money leak.

Yes, there are some conditions where it might help, such as a 20K-RPM F1 motor. Where it might help.

I have seen it on a dyno. With no other changes. So go put your stickers on

 

[Defiant]

I have seen it on a dyno. With no other changes. So go put your stickers on

Absolutely impossible. To begin with, in order to do a "comparison", the motor will have to be taken apart and reassembled. It's no longer the same engine. Whatever changes they told you were there were not from cryotreating anything.

 

[dsm-onster]

-DON"T use a stock Head Gasket...Mitsu MLS ..etc are very good!

I don't mean to be picky but, why not stock . Many many have used a stock composite for hp levels above this w/ simple arp head studs. . . At this level, w/out studs, stretching head bolts cause the head to lift during detonation or high hp pressures on the cylinder walls which weakens a head gasket because w/out the head holding it down it likes to blow out. The head gasket itself is not the culprit at such a level. Perhaps a bad really knocking tune or an improperly torqued head or stretching head bolts...

Then again, if your going to blow your cash on cryogenics, then smooth your head and block and get a mls head gasket (I agree w/ Defiant). I'd wait until I were dead and have them freeze my head if they were running a special on postmordum cranium preservation .

 

[Jon Lane]

Given that FFWD cryo's DSM motor parts, I'd always wondered about this too, so I did some research into how cryo'ing parts could do more than improve durability, in other words, make more power. How about these excerpts relating to making power?

"Treating the block and piston rings helps assure better ring sealing, which raises torque...Treating the block also reduces distortion of the block during machining and running...Cryogenic Processing reduces wear in the valve train. This assures the valve timing remains constant...Pistons resist detonation longer when treated, and also distort less in use...Piston rings seal better...Cylinder heads resist detonation better."​

Here's some interesting data on who uses cryo.

There are thousands of references online about cryo being used in all levels of racing, and more than a few point to making more power as a result.

 

[snox135]

Absolutely impossible. To begin with, in order to do a "comparison", the motor will have to be taken apart and reassembled. It's no longer the same engine. Whatever changes they told you were there were not from cryotreating anything.

Yes, but all the same parts and repeated results on the motors that I have witnessed.

These were on SBC racing motors and 2 stroke motors. The 2 strokes do gain a much larger percentage due to the design. Cold intake charge hitting on side of the piston and all the exhaust exiting the other side. The SBC gained very little hp but the result were repeated on several motors.

 

[sbiggi]

Cryo treating will make the stock parts stronger.

From what I have read, the people/vendors who do the crytreating claim the parts to be significantly stronger and more reliable.
People who dont know about it and haven't used it claim its crap and not worth the money.


My take on it is this:
The stock part may be stronger after cryotreating, but it still wouldnt be a know amount stronger.

Example: We have seen many people take the stock rods and pistons to 450whp, and know thats a safe limit. We havent heard of many people cry treating and pushing the motors.
We know the "cheap" combo of Wiesco's and Eagle rods can be pushed to 600+ whp.

I didnt/dont want to be the guy to find out that stock cryo'd components can only take ~500whp. Doing it right the first time is cheaper then doing it twice.

 

[dsm-onster]

I didnt/dont want to be the guy to find out that stock cryo'd components can only take ~500whp.

I think this is the reason for the debate. . .

Anyone here run cryoed stock parts to eyond their apparent limit? If cryogenically treating is cheaper and yields similar results as forged hardware, then sign me up...

I havn't heard of any significant success. . .